Question for the Group: Ivrelum Project

[Leopold]

I was never in this for money. In fact one of the big reasons I started was because I was too damn poor to pay for a campaign setting and I wanted to see a professional quality setting out there that can be downloaded for free.

If you want to run with your own ideas though, go ahead. Only problem I might have with it is if it wasn't actually you who came up with the inital ideas for Red Harbor and the Irivelum, I can't remember who did it orriginally.

i by all means want to contribute back to the project, it's just that the ivrelum have grown beyond a simple thieves guild into much much more. I would like to put something out on the market that will draw in interest to DF and at the same time try my hand at publishing a sourcebook which wouldn't be possible without the DF setting. Some of the money will come back to benefit the group and that in itself will be beneficial. By no means do i want anyone to feel like I am ripping off the setting, but my ideas to use the Ivrelum, fiendlords, and Red Harbor come from the DF setting.


I plan on making it fully compatible if not recommended to be run in DF but modular enough to be played in any setting. I did not come up with red harbor nor the ivrelum but it has grown beyond any scope that anyone had anticipated. Grey One came up with it and if it would be blessed by him allowing this I will draw up what needs to be done and make this available to anyone that is willing to work on it with me. I have most of it planned out already and just waiting for the ok of morrus and then i can begin work.

 

[RangerWickett]

Well then, let's find GreyOne, eh?

 

[Leopold]

Well then, let's find GreyOne, eh?

and morrus..gotta wait for the big boss to give the green light..

 

[GreyOne]

I don't know what to say about this.

I'm not really keen on the whole idea, since I never would have contributed had I known other people would take ideas and incorporate them in their own stuff for profit.

I don't want to be a party-pooper or anything.

The Ivrelum was always an organization that was more than just a thieves' guild. That's not new. Red Harbour I'm very protective of, though. I put it in my own campaign world after I wrote it. I don't like the idea of it and other stuff I came up with being out there for other people to make money off of.

I don't know. I don't want to come across as a jerk, and this is obviously something you're very keen on doing Leopold.

<selfish mode>: Its partly the credit for stuff (which I think has become a problem since we haven't really kept up a list of who did what). That's also why I thought presenting Daemonforge in the WotC contest was a bad idea. Who is gonna come forward saying that was their idea? It also makes me nervous thinking how many cool ideas that we all came up with that are going to find their way into campaign contest submissions?

I just don't know.

 

[Leopold]

Grey one, thanks for posting.


The point for the ivrelum being in a seperate sourcebook is something I have been thinking of doing. Furthermore, we aren't having any luck with certain parts of the setting getting people working on them so nor fleshing out other important areas and stats. My goal for this project is 2 fold:

1. Provide the public with a theives guild that is both modular and well laid out using open material and in a creative fresh way.

2. Introduce the masses to Daemonforge and get more people involved.


those have always been my 2 driving factors. Me publishing a module is something I have wanted to do for a very long time as I know the in's and outs of organizations such as these and have built many for games I have DM'd in and played. Morrus brought up a point in contributing the funds made by selling this back into Daemonforge and I am for it, further making Nat20 a prescense in this field is a bonus and helps pay for more works to come.

I don't need red harbor to make the module the way it will be, I can create a city based on it using different schematics and other ideas I have. For me using Red Harbor would be an instant way for a DM to pick up the file and then pick up the Daemonforge .pdf and be able to drop in his players instantly. The more hooks we give the DM's the greater chance they will come back looking for more. Red Harbor was the tie in for Daemonforge that I was looking for, if need be I will find or create another city and position it there but it would be nice to use this one as the history and setting blend in splendidly with my ideas.


As for credit, I firmly belive in giving credit where credit is due. I would gladly share in and acknowledge those in the group that have worked hard and would contintue to work for this prodcut. It will in no way have ONLY my name on it. I have several people out here who are doing art for it pending the approval and they will credit the credit if the art work is approved, likewise with the writers and people I will bounce off material from on here and out there.

I plan on donating most of the data therein back to the group anyway thereby completing another promise I made for fleshing out the areas where we lack in. This will not benefit me alone but will benefit the group and overall realm in general.

Like I stated above, I want to try and bring in fresh blood here, show the world DF, and try my hand at publishing information I know I can build and do. All i ask is the blessing of the group so we can proceed forward.

thank you for your understanding and patience in this matter.

jonathan

 

[Morrus]

GreyOne has a point - we don't know who did much of it, and can't use it without their permission. The only OGC is the stat blocks - no names, descriptions etc.

Leopold, you're a relative newcomer to Daemonforoge, so I'd better fill you in on how it worked for the first year or so. Every submission had a disclaimer attached expressly granting permission to use for fre in DF, but not to distribute in another form or to sell. There are so many elements involved, from people who we have lost track of, that it would be very difficult to make this OK morally, let alone legally. Even if we didn't have them up in arms about sellling what they did, we'd still have broken a promise.

Perhaps the best way to do this is to create a truly generic product, not a Daemonforge one. We could easily integrate what you did into Daemonforge and use it for publicity that way. From the "attracting newcomers" point of view, it makes no difference whether it was written two years ago or last week.

 

[RangerWickett]

Here's a thought that I'm just tossing out, with no real attachment or opinion to it.

The Ivrelum supplement could be put together professionally, and sold. A small fraction of the profit from the book could go to the writer and artists for their time, and the rest would go to the DF project, to pay for artists for the actual DF supplement. If this is still objectionable, then all the profits could go to the DF project, but it still should be for sale. People will be more interested in paying for something than just picking up a free supplement, oddly enough.

Then, the adventure could be written separately, with no direct links to DF. I'd think that people would be willing to give permission for Leopold to at least include a line like: "If you are playing in the Daemonforge setting, this adventure works best if set in the Red Harbour, with the Ivrelum as the thieves' guild." The adventure would not be making profit off DF, since it's a separate piece of work, but it would be fully compatible with the DF setting.

Well, that's my thoughts on it.

 

[Leopold]

I'd think that people would be willing to give permission for Leopold to at least include a line like: "If you are playing in the Daemonforge setting, this adventure works best if set in the Red Harbour, with the Ivrelum as the thieves' guild." The adventure would not be making profit off DF, since it's a separate piece of work, but it would be fully compatible with the DF setting.

For me to even make this work in DF I would have to have a large page devoted to describing the name changes and the layout. In the end it would have NOTHING to do with DF at all and just be a modular setting to be placed anywhere ruining the whole reason behind placing it in the town of red harbor (which i can change) and using the names of the fiendlords.

All i ask is the basic use of the the names of the fiendlords and the name of the Ivrelum. The rest I will change from there. I won't use anything from the .pdf and will build a new town and have it placed in the .pdf. Would this be an acceptable alternative? In this way the Ivrelum can be used, Red Harbor is saved and the fiendlords are fleshed out and can be placed back into DF where they belong as well as partial funds being sent back into the group to work on future products.

i believe this is more than enough for a compromise as I ask for 6 words to use and nothing more and willing to give back so much.

 

[Morrus]

All i ask is the basic use of the the names of the fiendlords

Leopold, you're kinda missing the point. Whatever concessions you offer, and however much you try to bargain, you're asking for permission that we don't have the power to give.

You can offer me the world in exchange for a second-hand jumbo jet, but if I don't have a second-hand jumbo jet, your powers of persuasion are redundant, as is any offer you make.

The material was written by people and submitted under a very specific disclaimer. I can't give you permission to use it, because that permission is not mine to give. No matter how long we discuss it, unless you have a time-machine, that material will still be useable only under the terms indicated by the disclaimer. Neither you nor I can change that.

 

[Leopold]

so in essence morrus it is nigh high impossible for someone to figure out who did the fiendlords and where they came from. That makes sense as I have seen many people come and go here.

Very well, I will just alter the books contents to not reflect DF but make it so that it can link up with the DF setting easily.

I thank everyone for their time and discussion on this. This clears up allot and shows the path for the product. It will not use any DF material, names or otherwise, but I will find a way to link it back to the works.

Now that this is settled let's move on to completing the main .PDF and shipping it out to the masses as we have been stagnant on that for far too long..