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<blockquote data-quote="Kinematics" data-source="post: 7321420" data-attributes="member: 6932123"><p>So, looking for a 3rd level non-Fireball AOE damage spell.</p><p></p><p> I started with Tidal Wave, which is sort of, but not really, Storm Sorcerer territory. I could just reskin it (change the element/description), but I also was looking at the spell creation rules in the DMG. The problem is that the DMG says nothing about how the area of the spell might affect its damage potential.</p><p></p><p>The quintessential Fireball has a 1250 sq ft area — obscenely large, on top of the overpowered damage it does.</p><p></p><p>Tidal Wave has a 300 sq ft area, on top of being underpowered compared to the DMG guidelines. (It does an average of 18 damage (4d8) instead of the suggested 21 for an AOE spell.)</p><p></p><p>I could bump the damage up to 5d8 and be closer to the suggested guidelines, but the real question is, what is a 'typical' area for an AOE? Presumably a smaller area corresponds to higher damage, given that it reaches the limit of a single 5'x5' square, or one person, for the 5d10 damage level.</p><p></p><p>So looking at the progression of typical AOE sizes for damage spells over the levels, I see:</p><p></p><p>Cantrip: 5' radius = 225 sq feet</p><p>1st: 15' cone = 115 sq ft; 10' radius (self) = 300 sq ft; 15' cube = 225 sq ft</p><p>2nd: 10' radius = 300 sq ft</p><p>3rd: 30'x10' = 300 sq ft; 10' radius (self) = 300 sq ft; 20' radius (fireball) = 1250 sq ft</p><p>4th: 20' radius = 1250 sq ft; 30' radius = 3000 sq ft</p><p>5th: 60' cone = 1800 sq ft; 20' radius (duration) = 1250 sq ft; 20' radius (duration) = 1250 sq ft</p><p></p><p>Overall, it looks like an increase of 5' radius per level, aside from spells that have duration. So a 'normal' AOE size would be:</p><p></p><p>Cantrip: 5' radius</p><p>1st: 5' radius (~100-200 sq ft)</p><p>2nd: 10' radius (~300 sq ft)</p><p>3rd: 15' radius (~700 sq ft)</p><p>4th: 20' radius (~1250 sq ft)</p><p>5th: 25' radius (~2000 sq ft)</p><p></p><p>If Insect Plague is a proper 5th level spell, then adding duration to an AOE damage area drops the spell damage rating 2 levels, and the region size by 1 level. Insect Plague does 4d10, which is a 22 point average, which approximates the 6d6 recommended level for 3rd level spells (average 21). Same for Cloudkill (5d8 = 22.5 avg). So the moving doesn't matter (as long as the caster doesn't control it), but it's still a duration spell. </p><p></p><p>Both of them are 10 minute duration spells; not sure if that has an effect compared to 1 minute duration concentration spells like Storm Sphere (4th level). Sickening Radiance (4th level) is also a 10 minute duration spell, but with a 30' radius, and the same 4d10 damage as the 5th level spell Insect Plague.</p><p></p><p>So, additional rules:</p><p>1) Self-targeted instead of ranged allows increasing area by one level. (?)</p><p>2) Adding a duration reduces area by one level, and reduces damage by two level.</p><p></p><p></p><p>I would consider Sickening Radiance overpowered, and Storm Sphere underpowered (though how it works makes it more complicated). Meanwhile, Fireball has the area of a 4th level spell and the damage of a 5th level spell.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Anyway, back to the original question. Tidal Wave is working on a 2nd level spell AOE size, and doing damage less than a 3rd level spell. Increasing the area to 40'x20' would put it on 3rd level sizing. Increasing the damage to 5d8 puts it on 3rd level damage levels.</p><p></p><p>I'm not sure about the difference between 1 minute and 10 minute concentration durations, though. Do they even matter, given it requires concentration to maintain? Kind of tempted to say any spell 4th level or higher that uses concentration can get the 10 minute duration as the baseline, but possibly bump up other aspects (such as damage) if the duration is only one minute.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Does this seem like a reasonable approach for balancing AOE spells that do damage?</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Kinematics, post: 7321420, member: 6932123"] So, looking for a 3rd level non-Fireball AOE damage spell. I started with Tidal Wave, which is sort of, but not really, Storm Sorcerer territory. I could just reskin it (change the element/description), but I also was looking at the spell creation rules in the DMG. The problem is that the DMG says nothing about how the area of the spell might affect its damage potential. The quintessential Fireball has a 1250 sq ft area — obscenely large, on top of the overpowered damage it does. Tidal Wave has a 300 sq ft area, on top of being underpowered compared to the DMG guidelines. (It does an average of 18 damage (4d8) instead of the suggested 21 for an AOE spell.) I could bump the damage up to 5d8 and be closer to the suggested guidelines, but the real question is, what is a 'typical' area for an AOE? Presumably a smaller area corresponds to higher damage, given that it reaches the limit of a single 5'x5' square, or one person, for the 5d10 damage level. So looking at the progression of typical AOE sizes for damage spells over the levels, I see: Cantrip: 5' radius = 225 sq feet 1st: 15' cone = 115 sq ft; 10' radius (self) = 300 sq ft; 15' cube = 225 sq ft 2nd: 10' radius = 300 sq ft 3rd: 30'x10' = 300 sq ft; 10' radius (self) = 300 sq ft; 20' radius (fireball) = 1250 sq ft 4th: 20' radius = 1250 sq ft; 30' radius = 3000 sq ft 5th: 60' cone = 1800 sq ft; 20' radius (duration) = 1250 sq ft; 20' radius (duration) = 1250 sq ft Overall, it looks like an increase of 5' radius per level, aside from spells that have duration. So a 'normal' AOE size would be: Cantrip: 5' radius 1st: 5' radius (~100-200 sq ft) 2nd: 10' radius (~300 sq ft) 3rd: 15' radius (~700 sq ft) 4th: 20' radius (~1250 sq ft) 5th: 25' radius (~2000 sq ft) If Insect Plague is a proper 5th level spell, then adding duration to an AOE damage area drops the spell damage rating 2 levels, and the region size by 1 level. Insect Plague does 4d10, which is a 22 point average, which approximates the 6d6 recommended level for 3rd level spells (average 21). Same for Cloudkill (5d8 = 22.5 avg). So the moving doesn't matter (as long as the caster doesn't control it), but it's still a duration spell. Both of them are 10 minute duration spells; not sure if that has an effect compared to 1 minute duration concentration spells like Storm Sphere (4th level). Sickening Radiance (4th level) is also a 10 minute duration spell, but with a 30' radius, and the same 4d10 damage as the 5th level spell Insect Plague. So, additional rules: 1) Self-targeted instead of ranged allows increasing area by one level. (?) 2) Adding a duration reduces area by one level, and reduces damage by two level. I would consider Sickening Radiance overpowered, and Storm Sphere underpowered (though how it works makes it more complicated). Meanwhile, Fireball has the area of a 4th level spell and the damage of a 5th level spell. Anyway, back to the original question. Tidal Wave is working on a 2nd level spell AOE size, and doing damage less than a 3rd level spell. Increasing the area to 40'x20' would put it on 3rd level sizing. Increasing the damage to 5d8 puts it on 3rd level damage levels. I'm not sure about the difference between 1 minute and 10 minute concentration durations, though. Do they even matter, given it requires concentration to maintain? Kind of tempted to say any spell 4th level or higher that uses concentration can get the 10 minute duration as the baseline, but possibly bump up other aspects (such as damage) if the duration is only one minute. Does this seem like a reasonable approach for balancing AOE spells that do damage? [/QUOTE]
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