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Raiders of the Serpent Sea - Third Party 5E Review
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<blockquote data-quote="Sparky McDibben" data-source="post: 9208656" data-attributes="member: 7041430"><p>Actually, in my recollection (which starts with <em>Dragon Age</em>), I don't think they have. Bioware stans, please let me know if I'm wrong.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Yep, but given that by this point the heroes have encountered multiple authority figures who've been suborned by the witches, this is unlikely to be met with anything but deep suspicion. Moreover, the adventure does not actually signal to the PCs that this place has different rules, that the rules you play by in the land of the living are fundamentally different, and this place will turn on you if break them. More moreover, the rules are maddeningly inconsistent (remember how it's OK to fight the dragon?) and never really explained. The problem here is not that Hel isn't giving them a warning, it's that the <em>whole adventure up to this point</em> has rewarded violence quite cheerfully, before turning that paradigm upside down, and failing to give the PCs a way to walk back their actions with sincere contrition. Hence, Rug Pull.</p><p></p><p>However, you are correct that Hel (though she doesn't show up herself) does give the PCs a warning. So I'll retract that part as wrong. Of course, later on, the PCs are told by someone to head to the Isle of the Wicked, which is absolutely a trap. If they heed the earlier warning from Hel on the Isle of the Wicked and don't attack anyone, they're boned. Eternally. So either way, this is exceptionally poor design.</p><p></p><p></p><p>That's only if the PCs get the "good ending" by having Siddhe become Hel at the end, Sword. There are three possible outcomes for this chapter. In two of them, the PCs don't get the horn, and the adventure breaks down. a 66.67% chance of failure? Not great.</p><p></p><p></p><p>This is a bit like saying that combat is "suggested" as the resolution if the Dead attack, but not described as an absolute requirement. Yes, I suppose you can just talk this out, but is that ever communicated as an option to the DM? Or is it left up to them to simply use the most flexible tool in the bag (the skill check) to resolve the issue? Like it or not, those skill checks will be used as the primary method for resolution, which means they are a resolution gate.</p><p></p><p></p><p>I did crop that out because it wasn't relevant to the example. The witchbeetles on Regulus (the example I pointed out), isn't conditional on the PCs bringing in the beetles, only on the PCs noticing the beetles and passing a DC 16 Investigation check. So again, it's inconsistent.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Sword, I'm sorry, but "we put this canon-breaking dragon here specifically so you'd have to talk with this NPC" is pretty linear in my book. Gating areas is fairly standard, except usually they are gated by level to avoid an untimely TPK. They are usually not gated by plot device, since that's not a very fun way to experience the content.</p><p></p><p></p><p>The second meaning of literal is "representing the exact words of the original text." The text says there are an infinite number of attackers. QED, it is a literal infinity. More to the point, what happens if your players run over and look in the door? Do they see an infinite number of bad guys stacked up there? My complaint here is that this is makes my decisions in the game (the decision to stand and fight, for example) less meaningful because my decision does not matter. The devs have decided you shouldn't stay here and learn about the place, so there are infinite monsters.</p><p></p><p></p><p>This doesn't address the Rug Pull criticism, which I expanded on earlier in this post.</p><p></p><p></p><p>It absolutely could play out that way. Or, as I said, a PC could run over and look, and ask you how many are left. As soon as you answer, if you commit to the literal infinity of bad guys here, what happens? The world feels less real, more like a video game.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Except that Siddhe <em>is</em> Hel, which is what I was referring to. Please read the Introduction for more details.</p><p></p><p></p><p>She is described as a simulacrum, but not as a <em>simulacrum</em> from the spell. A simulacrum simply means "An unsatisfactory imitation or substitute." Even so, let's use your description here. Hel fights (as a CR 20+ creature) with half hp for 5 rounds. And this is after the PCs have tangled with several monsters in the CR 7-9 weight class throughout the Saga. It's quite possible she can kill a PC by accident, even with a basic attack. You don't have to play her in a careful tactical fashion - just get unlucky. And before you suggest fudging the dice, why is it on me to fix the adventure's bad grasp on 5E power scaling? Why not simply have her scream at the ceiling or something? Or do some Darth Vader style smashing of breakables?</p><p></p><p></p><p>I think I've answered this charge fairly effectively, Sword. My complaints are well-founded, and proven examples of my experience running 5E for over half a decade at this point. If I can see the issues in this product, you should be able to as well.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Sword, I've seen people get shot over $20. We have no way of determining the disposable income of the people reading this. So I assume that whatever I spent on the product is significant funds. Because it very well might be.</p><p></p><p></p><p>My DTRPG download did not - I'm glad they've fixed that, though!</p><p></p><p></p><p>That's a completely fair rebuttal - thanks!</p><p></p><p></p><p>In the sense that his decisions led to the situation in which the heroes find themselves, yes. Still, if all that you encounter of a villain is their "influence" - are they really a villain?</p><p></p><p></p><p>Again with the Thermian argument. Sword, we went through this last time. Let me give you another example. The IMDb page for the same show says that "Graphic female rape is shown often throughout the series." Are you OK with putting that in your game? Of course not, because you're not a fool. It doesn't matter if the material is topical, it matters if it's going to stop your players enjoying the game.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Sparky McDibben, post: 9208656, member: 7041430"] Actually, in my recollection (which starts with [I]Dragon Age[/I]), I don't think they have. Bioware stans, please let me know if I'm wrong. Yep, but given that by this point the heroes have encountered multiple authority figures who've been suborned by the witches, this is unlikely to be met with anything but deep suspicion. Moreover, the adventure does not actually signal to the PCs that this place has different rules, that the rules you play by in the land of the living are fundamentally different, and this place will turn on you if break them. More moreover, the rules are maddeningly inconsistent (remember how it's OK to fight the dragon?) and never really explained. The problem here is not that Hel isn't giving them a warning, it's that the [I]whole adventure up to this point[/I] has rewarded violence quite cheerfully, before turning that paradigm upside down, and failing to give the PCs a way to walk back their actions with sincere contrition. Hence, Rug Pull. However, you are correct that Hel (though she doesn't show up herself) does give the PCs a warning. So I'll retract that part as wrong. Of course, later on, the PCs are told by someone to head to the Isle of the Wicked, which is absolutely a trap. If they heed the earlier warning from Hel on the Isle of the Wicked and don't attack anyone, they're boned. Eternally. So either way, this is exceptionally poor design. That's only if the PCs get the "good ending" by having Siddhe become Hel at the end, Sword. There are three possible outcomes for this chapter. In two of them, the PCs don't get the horn, and the adventure breaks down. a 66.67% chance of failure? Not great. This is a bit like saying that combat is "suggested" as the resolution if the Dead attack, but not described as an absolute requirement. Yes, I suppose you can just talk this out, but is that ever communicated as an option to the DM? Or is it left up to them to simply use the most flexible tool in the bag (the skill check) to resolve the issue? Like it or not, those skill checks will be used as the primary method for resolution, which means they are a resolution gate. I did crop that out because it wasn't relevant to the example. The witchbeetles on Regulus (the example I pointed out), isn't conditional on the PCs bringing in the beetles, only on the PCs noticing the beetles and passing a DC 16 Investigation check. So again, it's inconsistent. Sword, I'm sorry, but "we put this canon-breaking dragon here specifically so you'd have to talk with this NPC" is pretty linear in my book. Gating areas is fairly standard, except usually they are gated by level to avoid an untimely TPK. They are usually not gated by plot device, since that's not a very fun way to experience the content. The second meaning of literal is "representing the exact words of the original text." The text says there are an infinite number of attackers. QED, it is a literal infinity. More to the point, what happens if your players run over and look in the door? Do they see an infinite number of bad guys stacked up there? My complaint here is that this is makes my decisions in the game (the decision to stand and fight, for example) less meaningful because my decision does not matter. The devs have decided you shouldn't stay here and learn about the place, so there are infinite monsters. This doesn't address the Rug Pull criticism, which I expanded on earlier in this post. It absolutely could play out that way. Or, as I said, a PC could run over and look, and ask you how many are left. As soon as you answer, if you commit to the literal infinity of bad guys here, what happens? The world feels less real, more like a video game. Except that Siddhe [I]is[/I] Hel, which is what I was referring to. Please read the Introduction for more details. She is described as a simulacrum, but not as a [I]simulacrum[/I] from the spell. A simulacrum simply means "An unsatisfactory imitation or substitute." Even so, let's use your description here. Hel fights (as a CR 20+ creature) with half hp for 5 rounds. And this is after the PCs have tangled with several monsters in the CR 7-9 weight class throughout the Saga. It's quite possible she can kill a PC by accident, even with a basic attack. You don't have to play her in a careful tactical fashion - just get unlucky. And before you suggest fudging the dice, why is it on me to fix the adventure's bad grasp on 5E power scaling? Why not simply have her scream at the ceiling or something? Or do some Darth Vader style smashing of breakables? I think I've answered this charge fairly effectively, Sword. My complaints are well-founded, and proven examples of my experience running 5E for over half a decade at this point. If I can see the issues in this product, you should be able to as well. Sword, I've seen people get shot over $20. We have no way of determining the disposable income of the people reading this. So I assume that whatever I spent on the product is significant funds. Because it very well might be. My DTRPG download did not - I'm glad they've fixed that, though! That's a completely fair rebuttal - thanks! In the sense that his decisions led to the situation in which the heroes find themselves, yes. Still, if all that you encounter of a villain is their "influence" - are they really a villain? Again with the Thermian argument. Sword, we went through this last time. Let me give you another example. The IMDb page for the same show says that "Graphic female rape is shown often throughout the series." Are you OK with putting that in your game? Of course not, because you're not a fool. It doesn't matter if the material is topical, it matters if it's going to stop your players enjoying the game. [/QUOTE]
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