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Ravenloft Campaigns: What’s the meta-point?
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<blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 4666432" data-attributes="member: 4937"><p>The question this is, are you asking for more, or for less? I don't disagree that often less is more, but I don't see how less is more necessarily helps the setting.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>No, I don't think the cause and effect would be that straight forward. I think that among the locals, the existance of a border would more closely resemble the existance of taboos in M. Night Shyamalan's 'The Village', ei "Don't stray too far into the woods." Exactly what would happen if you did, much less that the hazard was under the control of someone or something wouldn't necessarily be generally known. Keep in mind the really diverse natures of Darklords. A domain might not even know that it has a Darklord in the case of say an imprisoned mummy, a doppleganger, or a possessing ghost or fiend. What does or does not cause a border to close - if indeed it has ever closed in living memory - need not be common knowledge.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Cause and effect are always in the hands of the DM. The basic structure of the game is that the player offers a proposition, the DM assigns a likelihood of success, and regardless of success or failure, the DM explains the effect. There is no polite fiction involved. You don't pretend the DM is in charge. The DM is in charge. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>They may hope for this outcome, but they can never dictate to the DM the desired outcome. In D&D proposition like, "I attempt to kill the Great Khan" is valid (assuming proximity to the Khan and means is available). The propositions, "I attempt to kill the Great Khan, thus causing the barbarian coalition to fall apart and start fighting among themselves" is not valid outside of extreme narrativist play where mechanics are available to handle it. D&D has never really had mechanisms for putting narrative control in the hands of players, and any player attempting to take narrative control from the DM is typically acting in an anti-social fashion.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Yes, it would suck? What's your point? The DM is most certainly in his rights to drop the PC's homeland into the Shadow Rift as a result of killing the Great Khan. Hopefully he has an interesting reason for doing so, but even if he didn't he'd be well within his authority. About the only thing the DM can't say is, "No, you don't want to do that." or otherwise govern the character (barring edge cases like PC is being magically dominated).</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>It really doesn't matter what is hoped for. Even in the real world - maybe especially in the real world - the outcome of actions are never perfectly clear in advance. There are almost always things that are unforeseen and unexpected consequences. What matters is that it makes sense for the particular campaign in question. Maybe the DM's secret twist is that the barbarian horde actually has a very sympathetic motivation - keeping the world from plunging into the Shadow Rift - and only there specially blessed Champion and Chieftain was with his very soul keeping the rift closed. Ooops, campaign suddenly shifts gears - old enemies become new friends, old allies turn out to be duplicitous fiends, and hopefully fun ensues. </p><p></p><p>Actually, I think your 'left field' suggestion is alot more fun than your expected result.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>We clearly have different definitions of the word 'jerk'.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Better, or just more specific to what you want in a campaign? It's always easier to remove things from a setting than to add them. If you pare a setting down, the particular trimming that you did might suit you better, but it might not be for everyone. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Why? The core narrative I suggested, "Be a light shining in the darkness", can I think be successfully played out in any of them. I think you can run a Ravenloft session running from a zombie apocalypse. I think you can run a Ravenloft session where the characters are archaelogists or treasure hunters that have - perhaps while looking for something completely different - stumbled into something that should best remain buried. I think you can run a Ravenloft session that plays out like a slasher movie, "Who is the monster going to get next?" The core story in each of these can remain the same, "Somehow when placed in a nightmare, make the world a better place." All that is needed for that narrative is a source of horror and the oppurtunity to be a hero, whether in a small way or a large. In none of the cases I describe is evil anything but unambigiously Evil, and in none of the cases am I removing the oppurtunity to be a hero.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Only because we know what the core narrative of the different stories is. Those are specific stories, not specific generas. Of course when you change narratives the specific narrative of that story arc changes. But within that framework, we could maintain a core narrative. You most certainly could play Star Wars with a Star Trek tone ('Boldly go where no one has gone before...") or adopt the darker tone of Aliens ('Man vs. Beast') or Terminator ('Man vs. His Creation'). Paranoia is a bit harder because its core narrative is simply, "You are thrown into a ludicrously lethal situation. Survive.", but I once ran a couple of sessions of Paranoia with a darkly serious Blade Runner tone. The core narrative stayed the same, but instead of playing it for laughs, I played it as dysotopian horror.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Celebrim, post: 4666432, member: 4937"] The question this is, are you asking for more, or for less? I don't disagree that often less is more, but I don't see how less is more necessarily helps the setting. No, I don't think the cause and effect would be that straight forward. I think that among the locals, the existance of a border would more closely resemble the existance of taboos in M. Night Shyamalan's 'The Village', ei "Don't stray too far into the woods." Exactly what would happen if you did, much less that the hazard was under the control of someone or something wouldn't necessarily be generally known. Keep in mind the really diverse natures of Darklords. A domain might not even know that it has a Darklord in the case of say an imprisoned mummy, a doppleganger, or a possessing ghost or fiend. What does or does not cause a border to close - if indeed it has ever closed in living memory - need not be common knowledge. Cause and effect are always in the hands of the DM. The basic structure of the game is that the player offers a proposition, the DM assigns a likelihood of success, and regardless of success or failure, the DM explains the effect. There is no polite fiction involved. You don't pretend the DM is in charge. The DM is in charge. They may hope for this outcome, but they can never dictate to the DM the desired outcome. In D&D proposition like, "I attempt to kill the Great Khan" is valid (assuming proximity to the Khan and means is available). The propositions, "I attempt to kill the Great Khan, thus causing the barbarian coalition to fall apart and start fighting among themselves" is not valid outside of extreme narrativist play where mechanics are available to handle it. D&D has never really had mechanisms for putting narrative control in the hands of players, and any player attempting to take narrative control from the DM is typically acting in an anti-social fashion. Yes, it would suck? What's your point? The DM is most certainly in his rights to drop the PC's homeland into the Shadow Rift as a result of killing the Great Khan. Hopefully he has an interesting reason for doing so, but even if he didn't he'd be well within his authority. About the only thing the DM can't say is, "No, you don't want to do that." or otherwise govern the character (barring edge cases like PC is being magically dominated). It really doesn't matter what is hoped for. Even in the real world - maybe especially in the real world - the outcome of actions are never perfectly clear in advance. There are almost always things that are unforeseen and unexpected consequences. What matters is that it makes sense for the particular campaign in question. Maybe the DM's secret twist is that the barbarian horde actually has a very sympathetic motivation - keeping the world from plunging into the Shadow Rift - and only there specially blessed Champion and Chieftain was with his very soul keeping the rift closed. Ooops, campaign suddenly shifts gears - old enemies become new friends, old allies turn out to be duplicitous fiends, and hopefully fun ensues. Actually, I think your 'left field' suggestion is alot more fun than your expected result. We clearly have different definitions of the word 'jerk'. Better, or just more specific to what you want in a campaign? It's always easier to remove things from a setting than to add them. If you pare a setting down, the particular trimming that you did might suit you better, but it might not be for everyone. Why? The core narrative I suggested, "Be a light shining in the darkness", can I think be successfully played out in any of them. I think you can run a Ravenloft session running from a zombie apocalypse. I think you can run a Ravenloft session where the characters are archaelogists or treasure hunters that have - perhaps while looking for something completely different - stumbled into something that should best remain buried. I think you can run a Ravenloft session that plays out like a slasher movie, "Who is the monster going to get next?" The core story in each of these can remain the same, "Somehow when placed in a nightmare, make the world a better place." All that is needed for that narrative is a source of horror and the oppurtunity to be a hero, whether in a small way or a large. In none of the cases I describe is evil anything but unambigiously Evil, and in none of the cases am I removing the oppurtunity to be a hero. Only because we know what the core narrative of the different stories is. Those are specific stories, not specific generas. Of course when you change narratives the specific narrative of that story arc changes. But within that framework, we could maintain a core narrative. You most certainly could play Star Wars with a Star Trek tone ('Boldly go where no one has gone before...") or adopt the darker tone of Aliens ('Man vs. Beast') or Terminator ('Man vs. His Creation'). Paranoia is a bit harder because its core narrative is simply, "You are thrown into a ludicrously lethal situation. Survive.", but I once ran a couple of sessions of Paranoia with a darkly serious Blade Runner tone. The core narrative stayed the same, but instead of playing it for laughs, I played it as dysotopian horror. [/QUOTE]
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