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Ravenloft Campaigns: What’s the meta-point?
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<blockquote data-quote="gonzoron" data-source="post: 4680035" data-attributes="member: 31753"><p>Wow, you forget about a thread for a week and it all goes spiraling off into the weeds. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /></p><p></p><p>My apologies if any of my posts sent us in that direction. My goal was to clear up what I saw as some misunderstandings of the setting, and the "limitations" thereof. Since my "core story" of Ravenloft is a very broad one, I see tools to use or discard as you see fit, rather than limitations.</p><p></p><p>While some of us may disagree on the "patchwork vs. realistic" debate, that doesn't make either of us less of a Ravenloft fan. As I said earlier, that debate's gone on in RL fandom as far as I can remember. So I won't dredge up too much, just respond to a few things that caught my eye and that (hopefully) either relate to the original point of the thread or clear up more misconceptions. I will endeavor not to drag us back into the discussion of what should or shouldn't be part of the setting.</p><p></p><p> I would say <em>no</em>, that's not the hero's job. The Hero's job is to do what's right. To fight the good fight, and to protect the innocent. To choose the least of evil when all choices are bad. And I think it's important to note that any of the options I listed are a lesser evil than simply letting the Darklord be. (And spinning into the Abyss is <em>not</em> one of those options, at least canonically).</p><p></p><p>The consequences of killing a BBEG are up to the DM in any world, and every RPG requires a level of trust between the DM and the players. Ravenloft's artificial nature only emphasizes that fact. When the PCs succeed, less people dying is the reward, not necessarily a huge improvement in the world. And on occasion if the PCs do what's right, but the consequence turns out to be horrendously worse, the purpose should be an opportunity for roleplaying, and a seed for future adventure, not simply the DM going, "HA-ha, you can't beat the Dark Powers!!"</p><p></p><p> I don't want to belabor this point too much, but it seems like you have an exaggerated view of how different the domains are. I know of no example of "the seasons run backwards" and the different skies have been done away with, with very few exceptions. When my players walk from Lamordia to Darkon, they say, "hmm, looks like they're a bit more accepting of magic here, and the weather's warmer now that we're down from the mountains." Not, "Oh my god, halflings! what strange hell is this?" If you stay within the core or a single cluster, it's very tough to tell that the world is disjoint. </p><p></p><p>And yet, as an example of the benefit of keeping the disjoint world: when my players took a long journey through the mists to Nidala, one of the few places that still does have a different sky, the reaction was, "hoo boy, we are definately not in Kansas anymore," not "yeah right, you expect us to believe that?" A little extra flavor to stress that they were far from home. Not an earth-shattering existential crisis.</p><p></p><p> Of course you can edit any campaign setting, but what's the point of a campaign setting at all? It's to inspire the DM in ways his imagination can't, and to give players a common touchstone of where they are. So it comes down to: does the existence of Ravenloft's "weirdness" interfere with a DM's ability to tell stories and engage their players? I submit that it does not. </p><p></p><p></p><p>100% percent agreed. And I've given some examples of such Ravenloft. Doom & Gloom is the nature of parts of the Ravenloft 'core story' but not necessarily the end.</p><p></p><p> This is an important point too, I think. This is what I was trying to get at when I was talking about the "uniqueness" that the demiplane setting provides.</p><p></p><p>I'm not going there again, I swear, I just want to let you know that the 3e Campaign Setting doesn't even include the Darklords! (Their stats, and even identities, are in a separate book.) I would encourage you to look at the 3e stuff, because I think it offers a lot of what you're looking for, without throwing the baby out with the bath water.</p><p></p><p> Very good points, all of them. I just wanted to highlight this one, especially as it relates to the bad guys. IMHO, in Ravenloft, no ghost should be "just a ghost". Every ghost is part of a "ghost story." Same for every monster type. Right from the Black Box, they stress that "Random Encounters" don't exist in Ravenloft. Every monster, every magic item, should have a background, a reason why it's there and why it does what it does. (The darklords are merely the extreme example of this.) The 'core story' of Ravenloft definitely involves heroes who seek out the hows and whys and not simply pour firepower on the bad guy. (see also Van Richten, Rudolph)</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="gonzoron, post: 4680035, member: 31753"] Wow, you forget about a thread for a week and it all goes spiraling off into the weeds. :) My apologies if any of my posts sent us in that direction. My goal was to clear up what I saw as some misunderstandings of the setting, and the "limitations" thereof. Since my "core story" of Ravenloft is a very broad one, I see tools to use or discard as you see fit, rather than limitations. While some of us may disagree on the "patchwork vs. realistic" debate, that doesn't make either of us less of a Ravenloft fan. As I said earlier, that debate's gone on in RL fandom as far as I can remember. So I won't dredge up too much, just respond to a few things that caught my eye and that (hopefully) either relate to the original point of the thread or clear up more misconceptions. I will endeavor not to drag us back into the discussion of what should or shouldn't be part of the setting. I would say [I]no[/I], that's not the hero's job. The Hero's job is to do what's right. To fight the good fight, and to protect the innocent. To choose the least of evil when all choices are bad. And I think it's important to note that any of the options I listed are a lesser evil than simply letting the Darklord be. (And spinning into the Abyss is [I]not[/I] one of those options, at least canonically). The consequences of killing a BBEG are up to the DM in any world, and every RPG requires a level of trust between the DM and the players. Ravenloft's artificial nature only emphasizes that fact. When the PCs succeed, less people dying is the reward, not necessarily a huge improvement in the world. And on occasion if the PCs do what's right, but the consequence turns out to be horrendously worse, the purpose should be an opportunity for roleplaying, and a seed for future adventure, not simply the DM going, "HA-ha, you can't beat the Dark Powers!!" I don't want to belabor this point too much, but it seems like you have an exaggerated view of how different the domains are. I know of no example of "the seasons run backwards" and the different skies have been done away with, with very few exceptions. When my players walk from Lamordia to Darkon, they say, "hmm, looks like they're a bit more accepting of magic here, and the weather's warmer now that we're down from the mountains." Not, "Oh my god, halflings! what strange hell is this?" If you stay within the core or a single cluster, it's very tough to tell that the world is disjoint. And yet, as an example of the benefit of keeping the disjoint world: when my players took a long journey through the mists to Nidala, one of the few places that still does have a different sky, the reaction was, "hoo boy, we are definately not in Kansas anymore," not "yeah right, you expect us to believe that?" A little extra flavor to stress that they were far from home. Not an earth-shattering existential crisis. Of course you can edit any campaign setting, but what's the point of a campaign setting at all? It's to inspire the DM in ways his imagination can't, and to give players a common touchstone of where they are. So it comes down to: does the existence of Ravenloft's "weirdness" interfere with a DM's ability to tell stories and engage their players? I submit that it does not. 100% percent agreed. And I've given some examples of such Ravenloft. Doom & Gloom is the nature of parts of the Ravenloft 'core story' but not necessarily the end. This is an important point too, I think. This is what I was trying to get at when I was talking about the "uniqueness" that the demiplane setting provides. I'm not going there again, I swear, I just want to let you know that the 3e Campaign Setting doesn't even include the Darklords! (Their stats, and even identities, are in a separate book.) I would encourage you to look at the 3e stuff, because I think it offers a lot of what you're looking for, without throwing the baby out with the bath water. Very good points, all of them. I just wanted to highlight this one, especially as it relates to the bad guys. IMHO, in Ravenloft, no ghost should be "just a ghost". Every ghost is part of a "ghost story." Same for every monster type. Right from the Black Box, they stress that "Random Encounters" don't exist in Ravenloft. Every monster, every magic item, should have a background, a reason why it's there and why it does what it does. (The darklords are merely the extreme example of this.) The 'core story' of Ravenloft definitely involves heroes who seek out the hows and whys and not simply pour firepower on the bad guy. (see also Van Richten, Rudolph) [/QUOTE]
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