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Realism vs. Believability and the Design of HPs, Powers and Other Things
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<blockquote data-quote="dkyle" data-source="post: 5876726" data-attributes="member: 70707"><p>They represent <em>more</em> than just physical injury. And they always have, from the start of the game.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>They do? I think they represent endurance and morale much more effectively than injuries. Frankly, replace HP with a "Morale" score, and the whole game makes a lot more sense.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I don't know those things full well. It could also be a narrow miss requiring major exertion or luck.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Does not follow.</p><p></p><p>Just because some forms of fatigue/morale are tracked by HP doesn't mean all of them have to be. Disease and poison can effect people in similar ways to physical injury, yet those are often tracked separately from HP.</p><p></p><p>"Attacks" do HP damage because there are game rules for attacks, and HP are the mechanical results. DnD doesn't have rules for being really sad. If a DM wanted to house rule them in, HP damage would make sense.</p><p></p><p>Except when it does. In 4E, lots of attacks deal "psychic" damage, that are basically a serious blow to morale. And I've often represented fatigue, from skill challenges as loss of healing surges, which is effectively the same as loss of HP.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Indeed it would. It would cause serious wounds inflicting serious penalties to actions, and risk of death if not treated. Since simple HP loss does not mean that, then "being hit by clearly life-threatening attacks" is very rare. Most "hits" are really more about loss of intangibles, than actual injury.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Hey, no need to apologize. Knowing when to concede to better "game design" instead of pure simulation, is an important part of the art of making good games. HP are a good design.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>While I can't deny that it did, I think it has more to do with people being familiar with HP, and not really internalizing what HP were always meant to represent, which was a whole host of intangible factors, with only a small component of actual physical damage. If HP are taken to mean what they were always supposed to mean, non-magical healing makes perfect sense.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>No need to apologize. That's why I love it. It finally embraced DnDs heritage, and delivered a <em>good game</em> on that premise, first and foremost. Just because the combat plays like a wargame doesn't mean it isn't an RPG.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I don't think throwing a bunch of knives within a few seconds is outside the realm of possibility. Difficult, sure, but these are meant to be extraordinary people.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>So, taking your example of Blinding Barrage, I'm not sure what should have been done differently. The second line is a concise flavor text explaining what the character is doing: "A rapid flurry of projectiles leaves your enemies clearing the blood from their eyes.". If that concept, of throwing projectiles in rapid succession at enemies eyes is not sufficiently realistic to you, then I'm not sure how it can be dressed up differently. I, for one, have no problem visualizing that attack.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I disagree. Embrace what HP have always meant, and make it truly clear that they don't just represent physical injury. That will make them more believable.</p><p></p><p>And I don't see how fewer HP inherently improves balance.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="dkyle, post: 5876726, member: 70707"] They represent [i]more[/i] than just physical injury. And they always have, from the start of the game. They do? I think they represent endurance and morale much more effectively than injuries. Frankly, replace HP with a "Morale" score, and the whole game makes a lot more sense. I don't know those things full well. It could also be a narrow miss requiring major exertion or luck. Does not follow. Just because some forms of fatigue/morale are tracked by HP doesn't mean all of them have to be. Disease and poison can effect people in similar ways to physical injury, yet those are often tracked separately from HP. "Attacks" do HP damage because there are game rules for attacks, and HP are the mechanical results. DnD doesn't have rules for being really sad. If a DM wanted to house rule them in, HP damage would make sense. Except when it does. In 4E, lots of attacks deal "psychic" damage, that are basically a serious blow to morale. And I've often represented fatigue, from skill challenges as loss of healing surges, which is effectively the same as loss of HP. Indeed it would. It would cause serious wounds inflicting serious penalties to actions, and risk of death if not treated. Since simple HP loss does not mean that, then "being hit by clearly life-threatening attacks" is very rare. Most "hits" are really more about loss of intangibles, than actual injury. Hey, no need to apologize. Knowing when to concede to better "game design" instead of pure simulation, is an important part of the art of making good games. HP are a good design. While I can't deny that it did, I think it has more to do with people being familiar with HP, and not really internalizing what HP were always meant to represent, which was a whole host of intangible factors, with only a small component of actual physical damage. If HP are taken to mean what they were always supposed to mean, non-magical healing makes perfect sense. No need to apologize. That's why I love it. It finally embraced DnDs heritage, and delivered a [i]good game[/i] on that premise, first and foremost. Just because the combat plays like a wargame doesn't mean it isn't an RPG. I don't think throwing a bunch of knives within a few seconds is outside the realm of possibility. Difficult, sure, but these are meant to be extraordinary people. So, taking your example of Blinding Barrage, I'm not sure what should have been done differently. The second line is a concise flavor text explaining what the character is doing: "A rapid flurry of projectiles leaves your enemies clearing the blood from their eyes.". If that concept, of throwing projectiles in rapid succession at enemies eyes is not sufficiently realistic to you, then I'm not sure how it can be dressed up differently. I, for one, have no problem visualizing that attack. I disagree. Embrace what HP have always meant, and make it truly clear that they don't just represent physical injury. That will make them more believable. And I don't see how fewer HP inherently improves balance. [/QUOTE]
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