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Realism vs. Believability and the Design of HPs, Powers and Other Things
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<blockquote data-quote="Gorgoroth" data-source="post: 5895402" data-attributes="member: 6674889"><p><strong>lots of good points Tony</strong></p><p></p><p>You obviously know your stuff, and I hope in no way to put forth the idea that I bash 4e while putting 3e or even PF as a paragon of perfect game design or combat simulation, far from it.</p><p></p><p>But what I'm saying is this : Whatever crafting feat should be balanced with the idea that it should be cheaper to have a cleric (much cheaper) in your party than buying CLW wands, and much cheaper than making them yourself. I'd much rather players need to make potions of CLW, than have easy access fo 275 hp batteries. That said in our PF games without a cleric, our wand has come in handy and allowed us to ram through lots of adventures while stuff having tons of danger and chance of death during combat, something I've never, ever experienced or felt in 4e, no matter the DM, module or custom setting. I appreciate DMs that try to keep the story flowing, but not when the story strings are visible. When PCs die once every few sessions, you tend to learn the value of life and avoiding that. 4e death was just way too uncommon, thus the claims that it was too close to the nerf/carebear side of the gritty/gamey spectrum. </p><p></p><p>I like a good game where my characters are heros and tough, but I don't like feeling <em>invincible</em>. CLW wands never made my PF barbarian feel invincible, it just kept the adventure going. Nobody really had time to use them in the midst of battle. This is the crucial difference. </p><p></p><p>Why in two+ years of playing 4e every week did we not respec a single player as a cleric? because <u>none of us died </u>and made us think "hey, maybe I should build my new char as a cleric and the party would do better." Not once did that happen. When your lightly armored striker in a party without healers don't die despite acting all reckless and so on, there is a serious balance problem that makes the problem of CLW wand pricing and feat availability pale in comparison. A level 10 fighter can still die in a dragon's single round full attack action, meaning my PF cleric had to spend his standard actions each round he was engaged in melee with it healed up with the best healing I had. </p><p></p><p>This is quite different than, well, <em>maybe </em>you <em>might </em>be better off with a cleric in your party. </p><p></p><p>In PF, in my experience, no cleric = dead.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Gorgoroth, post: 5895402, member: 6674889"] [b]lots of good points Tony[/b] You obviously know your stuff, and I hope in no way to put forth the idea that I bash 4e while putting 3e or even PF as a paragon of perfect game design or combat simulation, far from it. But what I'm saying is this : Whatever crafting feat should be balanced with the idea that it should be cheaper to have a cleric (much cheaper) in your party than buying CLW wands, and much cheaper than making them yourself. I'd much rather players need to make potions of CLW, than have easy access fo 275 hp batteries. That said in our PF games without a cleric, our wand has come in handy and allowed us to ram through lots of adventures while stuff having tons of danger and chance of death during combat, something I've never, ever experienced or felt in 4e, no matter the DM, module or custom setting. I appreciate DMs that try to keep the story flowing, but not when the story strings are visible. When PCs die once every few sessions, you tend to learn the value of life and avoiding that. 4e death was just way too uncommon, thus the claims that it was too close to the nerf/carebear side of the gritty/gamey spectrum. I like a good game where my characters are heros and tough, but I don't like feeling [I]invincible[/I]. CLW wands never made my PF barbarian feel invincible, it just kept the adventure going. Nobody really had time to use them in the midst of battle. This is the crucial difference. Why in two+ years of playing 4e every week did we not respec a single player as a cleric? because [U]none of us died [/U]and made us think "hey, maybe I should build my new char as a cleric and the party would do better." Not once did that happen. When your lightly armored striker in a party without healers don't die despite acting all reckless and so on, there is a serious balance problem that makes the problem of CLW wand pricing and feat availability pale in comparison. A level 10 fighter can still die in a dragon's single round full attack action, meaning my PF cleric had to spend his standard actions each round he was engaged in melee with it healed up with the best healing I had. This is quite different than, well, [I]maybe [/I]you [I]might [/I]be better off with a cleric in your party. In PF, in my experience, no cleric = dead. [/QUOTE]
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Realism vs. Believability and the Design of HPs, Powers and Other Things
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