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General Tabletop Discussion
D&D Older Editions
Reconciling 4e's rough edges with Story Now play
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<blockquote data-quote="Manbearcat" data-source="post: 9009927" data-attributes="member: 6696971"><p>Alright, I've got a small window here so I'm going to discuss Mouse Guard Mission Obstacles, "objective DCs", and holistic design.</p><p></p><p><strong>THE DANGEROUS THEMATIC CONFLICT OF THE TERRITITORIES AND SURROUNDS AND THE DUTIES OF THE GUARD</strong></p><p></p><p>Shortages, epidemics, minor social upheaval, outright uprisings or rebellions, war, Scent Border maintenance or problems, and the dangers of the outlands of Darkheather and Wild Country.</p><p></p><p>The typical duties of the Mouse Guard are protecting the settlements of The Territories from threats and from each other. From Lockhaven, the patrol will go on expeditions that entail the responsibilities of patrolling, path clearing, trail blazing, carrying mail, escorting, weather watching, hunting predators, maintaining the scent border, rescuing mice in distress and mediating disputes.</p><p></p><p>Now each Mission will fall under the premise of play, will then fall under the typical duties, and will then be materialize specifically as something like: <strong>SPRING</strong>: <em>The shipment of seeds hasn't arrived yet for planting season at Ivydale. Whatever happened, its out there on the path between Ivydale and Shaleburrow. Recover the seeds before planting season or it will be a hungry winter.</em></p><p></p><p><strong>THE MISSION AND THE MICE</strong></p><p></p><p>Alright we have a Mission that engages deeply with the premise of play. </p><p></p><p>* Now players write their PC's Goals for this Mission. </p><p></p><p>* Now the GM has 4 Mission Obstacles to put in front of the patrol. They'll have a solid idea for 2 that they'll theme around <em>weather, wilderness, animals, or mice</em>. These 2 x Obstacles should address the premise of the Mission (which addresses the premise of play). But they also need to be situations that challenge the thematic material embedded into one or more PC mice; goal, beliefs, instincts, relationships.</p><p></p><p>* So the GM has 2 x Obstacles (of the 4) "in their back pocket." These will get purposed and themed on the fly as the situation resolves (the GM should try to bring in the other two obstacle archetypes that they haven't brought in yet while still challenging a particular mouse in some interesting way).</p><p></p><p><strong>NATURAL ORDER, OBJECTIVE DCS, TWISTS, FAIL FORWARD, AND ADVANCEMENT</strong></p><p></p><p>* Natural Order is a hierarchy that indexes naturalistic relationships ranking based on the ability to prey upon one another. This ranking has a mechanical effect when it comes to the ability of one ranked creature to kill, capture, injure, or drive off another rank. This will look like "objective DC" relationship maps.</p><p></p><p>* Obs are set up as 1 (easy), 2 (medium), 3 (challenging), 4 (hard), 5 (very difficult). 6+ might occur very, very infrequently, and when they do, they're always going to be extremely threatening (virtually impossible to overcome without a deep marshaling of resources + some luck).</p><p></p><p>* You "Factor" (add up the threats/hardships/details/circumstances the obstacle/situation entails) in order to derive the total Obs # (the rating of the obstacle to surmount via successes with your dice pool). This will look like "objective DC" handling.</p><p></p><p>* Handling Failure. Failure happens in the form of either (a) Twists which represents an escalation of situation/a new obstacle which makes things more threatening and interesting if you're a player (or "worse" if you're an actual mouse in The Guard) or (b) the prior obstacle is resolved but one or more mice (depending upon Help) suffers a condition.</p><p></p><p>* You need both successes and failures for the Advancement of your Skills and Abilities.</p><p></p><p><strong>PLAY EVOLVES ORGANICALLY FROM THERE</strong></p><p></p><p>* The accreting fiction of Missions generates more fiction and more Missions. The mice of The Guard change with the crises and rallies and lessons of the Missions, the changing of Seasons, and the reflection come Winter (a particular phase of the game).</p><p></p><p></p><p>[HR][/HR]</p><p></p><p>Ok, so we've got Natural Order and we've got "Objective DC" handling for our obstacles/situations. Despite this:</p><p></p><p>* Why does Mouse Guard not turn into a game undergirded by the feel of process simulation; of intense scrutiny/belaboring of internal causality? </p><p></p><p>* Why does the game not turn into a turtle-fest where conflict is to be hedged against and avoided? </p><p></p><p>* Why does the game not become an experience that is decoupled from player protagonism and PC dramatic need?</p><p></p><p></p><p>The answers are above in the "what" each aspect of play/game engine prioritizes and accomplishes, and in the "how" it does so via the way each aspect interacts with and interlocks with the other. Hopefully folks can tease that out based on the abstract I've written above. And then, hopefully, folks can examine how that intersects with the way 4e "does what it does" up to and including the question "are 4e's DCs subjective/objective/both(?)" and "how much does that matter given the holistic design of the game engine of 4e?"</p><p></p><p>I'll leave those answers as an exercise for readers and I'll get back into the thread at some point in the future if this particular conversation angle has any purchase.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Manbearcat, post: 9009927, member: 6696971"] Alright, I've got a small window here so I'm going to discuss Mouse Guard Mission Obstacles, "objective DCs", and holistic design. [B]THE DANGEROUS THEMATIC CONFLICT OF THE TERRITITORIES AND SURROUNDS AND THE DUTIES OF THE GUARD[/B] Shortages, epidemics, minor social upheaval, outright uprisings or rebellions, war, Scent Border maintenance or problems, and the dangers of the outlands of Darkheather and Wild Country. The typical duties of the Mouse Guard are protecting the settlements of The Territories from threats and from each other. From Lockhaven, the patrol will go on expeditions that entail the responsibilities of patrolling, path clearing, trail blazing, carrying mail, escorting, weather watching, hunting predators, maintaining the scent border, rescuing mice in distress and mediating disputes. Now each Mission will fall under the premise of play, will then fall under the typical duties, and will then be materialize specifically as something like: [B]SPRING[/B]: [I]The shipment of seeds hasn't arrived yet for planting season at Ivydale. Whatever happened, its out there on the path between Ivydale and Shaleburrow. Recover the seeds before planting season or it will be a hungry winter.[/I] [B]THE MISSION AND THE MICE[/B] Alright we have a Mission that engages deeply with the premise of play. * Now players write their PC's Goals for this Mission. * Now the GM has 4 Mission Obstacles to put in front of the patrol. They'll have a solid idea for 2 that they'll theme around [I]weather, wilderness, animals, or mice[/I]. These 2 x Obstacles should address the premise of the Mission (which addresses the premise of play). But they also need to be situations that challenge the thematic material embedded into one or more PC mice; goal, beliefs, instincts, relationships. * So the GM has 2 x Obstacles (of the 4) "in their back pocket." These will get purposed and themed on the fly as the situation resolves (the GM should try to bring in the other two obstacle archetypes that they haven't brought in yet while still challenging a particular mouse in some interesting way). [B]NATURAL ORDER, OBJECTIVE DCS, TWISTS, FAIL FORWARD, AND ADVANCEMENT[/B] * Natural Order is a hierarchy that indexes naturalistic relationships ranking based on the ability to prey upon one another. This ranking has a mechanical effect when it comes to the ability of one ranked creature to kill, capture, injure, or drive off another rank. This will look like "objective DC" relationship maps. * Obs are set up as 1 (easy), 2 (medium), 3 (challenging), 4 (hard), 5 (very difficult). 6+ might occur very, very infrequently, and when they do, they're always going to be extremely threatening (virtually impossible to overcome without a deep marshaling of resources + some luck). * You "Factor" (add up the threats/hardships/details/circumstances the obstacle/situation entails) in order to derive the total Obs # (the rating of the obstacle to surmount via successes with your dice pool). This will look like "objective DC" handling. * Handling Failure. Failure happens in the form of either (a) Twists which represents an escalation of situation/a new obstacle which makes things more threatening and interesting if you're a player (or "worse" if you're an actual mouse in The Guard) or (b) the prior obstacle is resolved but one or more mice (depending upon Help) suffers a condition. * You need both successes and failures for the Advancement of your Skills and Abilities. [B]PLAY EVOLVES ORGANICALLY FROM THERE[/B] * The accreting fiction of Missions generates more fiction and more Missions. The mice of The Guard change with the crises and rallies and lessons of the Missions, the changing of Seasons, and the reflection come Winter (a particular phase of the game). [HR][/HR] Ok, so we've got Natural Order and we've got "Objective DC" handling for our obstacles/situations. Despite this: * Why does Mouse Guard not turn into a game undergirded by the feel of process simulation; of intense scrutiny/belaboring of internal causality? * Why does the game not turn into a turtle-fest where conflict is to be hedged against and avoided? * Why does the game not become an experience that is decoupled from player protagonism and PC dramatic need? The answers are above in the "what" each aspect of play/game engine prioritizes and accomplishes, and in the "how" it does so via the way each aspect interacts with and interlocks with the other. Hopefully folks can tease that out based on the abstract I've written above. And then, hopefully, folks can examine how that intersects with the way 4e "does what it does" up to and including the question "are 4e's DCs subjective/objective/both(?)" and "how much does that matter given the holistic design of the game engine of 4e?" I'll leave those answers as an exercise for readers and I'll get back into the thread at some point in the future if this particular conversation angle has any purchase. [/QUOTE]
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