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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 7297772" data-attributes="member: 42582"><p>This seems a very shallow conception of what it means to engage the fiction of the game.</p><p></p><p>I will illustrate with examples from my two 4e campaigns.</p><p></p><p>In one, the PCs are demigods (or the equivalent thereof) who are fighting (both figuratively and literally) to show that the Dusk War is not at hand, and that the demands of the Primordials and the Gods can both be answered without the need for a conflict that would destroy the mortal world.</p><p></p><p>In the other, the PCs are rather insignificant actors (some gladiators, some envoys from The Land Within the Wind, a thri-kreen) in the immediate aftermath of the revolution in Tyr.</p><p></p><p>Because of the way the system works, and the way I use the system as a GM in framing the situations in which the PCs find themselves, in both games the typical chance of success for an attempted action is between 50% and 75%. But that hardly means there is no significance in these fictional differences. It doesn't mean that it was meaningless for the first set of PCs to grow from local heroes to cosmically powerful beings. These events in the fiction have meaning. The mechanics aren't the source of that meaning; they're just a device for determining what happens when the players make choices about how their PCs engage the fictional situations with which they are confronted.</p><p></p><p>Every D&D player knows that gaining levels means fighting tougher monsters. It says so right on the tin!</p><p></p><p>Eg AD&D PHB, p 7: "As players build the experience level of their characters and go forth seeking ever greater challenges, they must face stronger monsters and more difficult problems of other sorts". And 5e Basic PDF, p 10:</p><p></p><p style="margin-left: 20px">The shading in the Character Advancement table shows the four tiers of play. The tiers don’t have any rules associated</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">with them; they are a general description of how the play experience changes as characters gain levels.</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">In the first tier (levels 1–4), characters are effectively apprentice adventurers. . . . The threats they face are relatively minor, usually posing a danger to local farmsteads or villages.</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">In the second tier (levels 5–10), characters come into their own. . . . These characters have become important, facing dangers that</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">threaten cities and kingdoms. . . .</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">In the third tier (levels 11–16), characters have reached a level of power that sets them high above the ordinary populace and makes them special even among adventurers. . . . These mighty adventurers often confront threats to whole regions and continents. . . .</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">At the fourth tier (levels 17–20), characters achieve the pinnacle of their class features, becoming heroic (or villainous) archetypes in their own right. The fate of the world or even the fundamental order of the multiverse might hang in the balance during their adventures.</p><p></p><p>This makes it pretty clear that gaining levels means more and/or bigger kobolds. Doing the same if players build tougher-than-default PCs at a given level isn't changing anything about these fundamental dynamics of play.</p><p></p><p>I haven't suggested doing anything arbitrary or unpredictable.</p><p></p><p>And as far as the integrity of GMs is concerned, they're pretty resilient. I'm not going to corrupt them, I don't think.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 7297772, member: 42582"] This seems a very shallow conception of what it means to engage the fiction of the game. I will illustrate with examples from my two 4e campaigns. In one, the PCs are demigods (or the equivalent thereof) who are fighting (both figuratively and literally) to show that the Dusk War is not at hand, and that the demands of the Primordials and the Gods can both be answered without the need for a conflict that would destroy the mortal world. In the other, the PCs are rather insignificant actors (some gladiators, some envoys from The Land Within the Wind, a thri-kreen) in the immediate aftermath of the revolution in Tyr. Because of the way the system works, and the way I use the system as a GM in framing the situations in which the PCs find themselves, in both games the typical chance of success for an attempted action is between 50% and 75%. But that hardly means there is no significance in these fictional differences. It doesn't mean that it was meaningless for the first set of PCs to grow from local heroes to cosmically powerful beings. These events in the fiction have meaning. The mechanics aren't the source of that meaning; they're just a device for determining what happens when the players make choices about how their PCs engage the fictional situations with which they are confronted. Every D&D player knows that gaining levels means fighting tougher monsters. It says so right on the tin! Eg AD&D PHB, p 7: "As players build the experience level of their characters and go forth seeking ever greater challenges, they must face stronger monsters and more difficult problems of other sorts". And 5e Basic PDF, p 10: [indent]The shading in the Character Advancement table shows the four tiers of play. The tiers don’t have any rules associated with them; they are a general description of how the play experience changes as characters gain levels. In the first tier (levels 1–4), characters are effectively apprentice adventurers. . . . The threats they face are relatively minor, usually posing a danger to local farmsteads or villages. In the second tier (levels 5–10), characters come into their own. . . . These characters have become important, facing dangers that threaten cities and kingdoms. . . . In the third tier (levels 11–16), characters have reached a level of power that sets them high above the ordinary populace and makes them special even among adventurers. . . . These mighty adventurers often confront threats to whole regions and continents. . . . At the fourth tier (levels 17–20), characters achieve the pinnacle of their class features, becoming heroic (or villainous) archetypes in their own right. The fate of the world or even the fundamental order of the multiverse might hang in the balance during their adventures.[/indent] This makes it pretty clear that gaining levels means more and/or bigger kobolds. Doing the same if players build tougher-than-default PCs at a given level isn't changing anything about these fundamental dynamics of play. I haven't suggested doing anything arbitrary or unpredictable. And as far as the integrity of GMs is concerned, they're pretty resilient. I'm not going to corrupt them, I don't think. [/QUOTE]
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