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<blockquote data-quote="The Crimson Binome" data-source="post: 7302052" data-attributes="member: 6775031"><p>Meta-gaming is definitionally not role-playing, and role-playing is the method by which a role-playing game is played. Using information that the character does not have - such as the fact that the characters exist as a game for people living in another dimension - is meta-gaming, and therefore bad.</p><p></p><p>Of course, making the other players sit on the sidelines while you go off on your solo adventure is also bad. In this case, you're put into the difficult situation of choosing between two bad choices: you either prevent the other players from participating for some significant period of time, or you damage the integrity of the entire exercise and everything that's happened so far by choosing to act out-of-character. Weighing the (likely) significant inconvenience you would pose to the group, against the (likely) minor damage to suspension of disbelief, you may well choose that meta-gaming here is the lesser of two evils. That doesn't make it a <em>good</em> thing, by any stretch; it's merely <em>less</em> terrible than the alternative at the time. Ideally, players should not make characters that would be prone to such dilemmas, since there is a cost to be paid either way.</p><p>The DM is responsible for role-playing all NPCs in the game. That includes the NPC who designed any given trap, and decided where to place it; even if that character died a thousand years before the campaign began. If the DM is using their out-of-game knowledge of who the PCs are (or their absolute bonus with thieves' tools), to make decisions for this NPC who never met the party, then that's meta-gaming. Likewise, if there are eight kobolds in the next room instead of four, if their decision to congregate was based on information they could not have, then that is meta-gaming.</p><p>Of course the characters don't know the game mechanics. They don't need to, because they can observe their <em>actual</em> reality, of which those mechanics are merely a reflection. <em>They</em> understand the costs associated with making one choice over another, far better than we do.</p><p></p><p>A fighter may well choose to become a Gourmand rather than a Great Weapon Master. There are plenty of reasons to make one choice or the other. However, it is disingenuous to remove the <em>pressure</em> to optimize, which was the suggestion at hand; whether the fighter chooses one path or another, the knowledge that this choice may have ramifications is not something that should be ignored. If the <em>player</em> knows that the future opposition will <em>causally</em> re-balance itself to account for the capability of the character, then that is meta-game information which the <em>character</em> is not allowed to consider when making their decision.</p><p>If you find that role-playing is detracting from the fun of your role-playing games, then you may need to find a new hobby. If you want to meta-game then fine, but you aren't role-playing anymore, and to suggest that you are would be a lie. It may sound harsh, but it is already true whether or not you acknowledge it, and owning up to it doesn't make it any worse.</p><p>Misrepresenting the role-playing hobby, by suggesting that meta-gaming is a valid playstyle, is not something which should ever be tolerated. Meta-gaming is bad, in the context of role-playing games, and meta-gamers are bad role-players definitionally; they are role-playing incorrectly, if they can be said to still be role-playing at all. If you take offense at that, then you may need to re-evaluate your perspective. That which can be destroyed by the truth should be.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="The Crimson Binome, post: 7302052, member: 6775031"] Meta-gaming is definitionally not role-playing, and role-playing is the method by which a role-playing game is played. Using information that the character does not have - such as the fact that the characters exist as a game for people living in another dimension - is meta-gaming, and therefore bad. Of course, making the other players sit on the sidelines while you go off on your solo adventure is also bad. In this case, you're put into the difficult situation of choosing between two bad choices: you either prevent the other players from participating for some significant period of time, or you damage the integrity of the entire exercise and everything that's happened so far by choosing to act out-of-character. Weighing the (likely) significant inconvenience you would pose to the group, against the (likely) minor damage to suspension of disbelief, you may well choose that meta-gaming here is the lesser of two evils. That doesn't make it a [I]good[/I] thing, by any stretch; it's merely [I]less[/I] terrible than the alternative at the time. Ideally, players should not make characters that would be prone to such dilemmas, since there is a cost to be paid either way. The DM is responsible for role-playing all NPCs in the game. That includes the NPC who designed any given trap, and decided where to place it; even if that character died a thousand years before the campaign began. If the DM is using their out-of-game knowledge of who the PCs are (or their absolute bonus with thieves' tools), to make decisions for this NPC who never met the party, then that's meta-gaming. Likewise, if there are eight kobolds in the next room instead of four, if their decision to congregate was based on information they could not have, then that is meta-gaming. Of course the characters don't know the game mechanics. They don't need to, because they can observe their [I]actual[/I] reality, of which those mechanics are merely a reflection. [I]They[/I] understand the costs associated with making one choice over another, far better than we do. A fighter may well choose to become a Gourmand rather than a Great Weapon Master. There are plenty of reasons to make one choice or the other. However, it is disingenuous to remove the [I]pressure[/I] to optimize, which was the suggestion at hand; whether the fighter chooses one path or another, the knowledge that this choice may have ramifications is not something that should be ignored. If the [I]player[/I] knows that the future opposition will [I]causally[/I] re-balance itself to account for the capability of the character, then that is meta-game information which the [I]character[/I] is not allowed to consider when making their decision. If you find that role-playing is detracting from the fun of your role-playing games, then you may need to find a new hobby. If you want to meta-game then fine, but you aren't role-playing anymore, and to suggest that you are would be a lie. It may sound harsh, but it is already true whether or not you acknowledge it, and owning up to it doesn't make it any worse. Misrepresenting the role-playing hobby, by suggesting that meta-gaming is a valid playstyle, is not something which should ever be tolerated. Meta-gaming is bad, in the context of role-playing games, and meta-gamers are bad role-players definitionally; they are role-playing incorrectly, if they can be said to still be role-playing at all. If you take offense at that, then you may need to re-evaluate your perspective. That which can be destroyed by the truth should be. [/QUOTE]
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