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resource-management in the endgame [Pathfinder] [spoilers]
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<blockquote data-quote="efreund" data-source="post: 7197702" data-attributes="member: 6799797"><p>Thanks for your response. Though I'll admit, there's a few things in there that confused me.</p><p></p><p>I haven't read the 4e version, but in the Pathfinder version, there's no leveling up in either adv12 nor adv13. The party is level 19 for adv11, and then dings as they bring low the catastrophe dragon. The party then just holds steady at level 20 throughout the last two books. That's part of why the helix-plotline can work so well.</p><p></p><p>If we want the players to wake up in adv13 (which, according to their souls' timeline, just moments ago failed to save Av from destruction) having fully healed, and fully restored all of their per-day abilities, because of the awesome power of the Gyre or somesuch, then sure, that can work. The GM can just snap his fingers, the PCs don't have to make any in-game choices, and they're all powered up. The problem is how prepared spellcasters work in Pathfinder.</p><p></p><p>In every highish level Pathfinder game that I've played in (or GMed), where the PCs know there's going to be an attrition-fest ahead of them (such as before a dungeon crawl), there's a calculated strategic metagame on exactly what spells to prepare. And furthermore, for the classes that allow it (like Wizards), there's a strategy around what percentage of spell slots to remain "fresh" (and thus unusable in the short term). This ends up being a group decision, where the various casters work together, taking into account the various consumables (mostly scrolls), and trying to cover the most scenarios. (e.g. make sure the various elemental resistances are covered, ways to stop the enemies from teleporting away, ways to silence, ways to break silence, mitigation of death effects, etc. and this always takes into account what the party expects to be facing that day, and they change their loadout accordingly. You prep for "undead castle" differently than, say, "open battlefield of mooks" or "fiery dragon's lair")</p><p></p><p>Given the circumstances with how adv13 starts, I don't see how this can happen. There's no time for the PCs to get together and kibitz about what (and how much) to prep. So I'm not sure if I should wipe my prepared caster's spells, or let them keep them. The easiest thing might be to say that they wake up in some sort of weakened state atop the cold ziggurat, with fresh(empty) spell slots, and tell them it will take an hour to recover. They use that hour to kibitz and prep spells, and that hour is also how long it takes their ambushers to come along. (Point is, I don't want them running off.)</p><p></p><p></p><p>I read ItchyBrain's post too and was disappointed by it. I'm getting off-topic now, but I wonder if some of the RP-victory conditions are too easy? Going back and re-reading through adv8, it seems pretty easy to realize that you've got to go see the daughter-death memory. Even if the other matriarch (forget her name, starts with an 'A') tries to disrupt the lead-in vision, it's obvious that you need to go to Seobriga and do the second one. And then you're pretty much set, as now you've basically locked Kasavarina onto your side. Then fast-forwarding to adv12, it seems pretty forgone that the PCs will end up on Ascetia (it's literally a lighthouse across the Gyre, and last waystation before the presumptive final boss), and once there, it seems pretty foregone that they'll befriend the shard of Miller's soul. There's no real difficulty, steps involved, or reasons for the PCs to choose another path. Once they've got those two alliances in their pocket (and throw in the fact that Recklinghausen was never really loyal to the cause anyway), it seems a bit foregone that the end combat (of adv13) turns into an easy RP-only victory. Again, there's no mechanics, multiple steps involved, or reason for the PCs not to just do it.</p><p></p><p><span style="font-size: 9px">Call me crunch-obsessed, but maybe there are loyalty-wards built into planar-lantern that's in Borne's chest, and it prevents him from disobeying Nic. And the PCs have to do the shadow-of-the-colossus thing and climb into him and blow it up before Borne will listen to reason. Something like that. Anyway, the line between brainstorming and rambling is a thin one.</span></p><p></p><p>Back on topic: I agree that PCs are pretty much always at full HP. (Damn cheap wands of CLW, PCs buy 'em by the bundle.) What they aren't always full on are "sticky" conditions. Like stat drain, or curses, or negative levels. These things require spells with expensive material components in order to alleviate (see: Restoration, Greater). And if the PCs aren't packing those spells (or willing to burn that kind of gold "until it gets bad enough"), then <em>that's</em> what hangs around the high-level party's neck as they trudge through the dungeon. And those are exactly the sort of scrolls they'd want to buy in Flint after they liberate it from the Hex-Eater (which, again, can be tantamount to a full-rest).</p><p></p><p>Anyway, I doubt I'll ever get this far <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite3" alt=":(" title="Frown :(" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":(" /> but it's fun to think about. Such great enemies with such great statblocks. Love spending time reading and studying them. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="efreund, post: 7197702, member: 6799797"] Thanks for your response. Though I'll admit, there's a few things in there that confused me. I haven't read the 4e version, but in the Pathfinder version, there's no leveling up in either adv12 nor adv13. The party is level 19 for adv11, and then dings as they bring low the catastrophe dragon. The party then just holds steady at level 20 throughout the last two books. That's part of why the helix-plotline can work so well. If we want the players to wake up in adv13 (which, according to their souls' timeline, just moments ago failed to save Av from destruction) having fully healed, and fully restored all of their per-day abilities, because of the awesome power of the Gyre or somesuch, then sure, that can work. The GM can just snap his fingers, the PCs don't have to make any in-game choices, and they're all powered up. The problem is how prepared spellcasters work in Pathfinder. In every highish level Pathfinder game that I've played in (or GMed), where the PCs know there's going to be an attrition-fest ahead of them (such as before a dungeon crawl), there's a calculated strategic metagame on exactly what spells to prepare. And furthermore, for the classes that allow it (like Wizards), there's a strategy around what percentage of spell slots to remain "fresh" (and thus unusable in the short term). This ends up being a group decision, where the various casters work together, taking into account the various consumables (mostly scrolls), and trying to cover the most scenarios. (e.g. make sure the various elemental resistances are covered, ways to stop the enemies from teleporting away, ways to silence, ways to break silence, mitigation of death effects, etc. and this always takes into account what the party expects to be facing that day, and they change their loadout accordingly. You prep for "undead castle" differently than, say, "open battlefield of mooks" or "fiery dragon's lair") Given the circumstances with how adv13 starts, I don't see how this can happen. There's no time for the PCs to get together and kibitz about what (and how much) to prep. So I'm not sure if I should wipe my prepared caster's spells, or let them keep them. The easiest thing might be to say that they wake up in some sort of weakened state atop the cold ziggurat, with fresh(empty) spell slots, and tell them it will take an hour to recover. They use that hour to kibitz and prep spells, and that hour is also how long it takes their ambushers to come along. (Point is, I don't want them running off.) I read ItchyBrain's post too and was disappointed by it. I'm getting off-topic now, but I wonder if some of the RP-victory conditions are too easy? Going back and re-reading through adv8, it seems pretty easy to realize that you've got to go see the daughter-death memory. Even if the other matriarch (forget her name, starts with an 'A') tries to disrupt the lead-in vision, it's obvious that you need to go to Seobriga and do the second one. And then you're pretty much set, as now you've basically locked Kasavarina onto your side. Then fast-forwarding to adv12, it seems pretty forgone that the PCs will end up on Ascetia (it's literally a lighthouse across the Gyre, and last waystation before the presumptive final boss), and once there, it seems pretty foregone that they'll befriend the shard of Miller's soul. There's no real difficulty, steps involved, or reasons for the PCs to choose another path. Once they've got those two alliances in their pocket (and throw in the fact that Recklinghausen was never really loyal to the cause anyway), it seems a bit foregone that the end combat (of adv13) turns into an easy RP-only victory. Again, there's no mechanics, multiple steps involved, or reason for the PCs not to just do it. [SIZE=1]Call me crunch-obsessed, but maybe there are loyalty-wards built into planar-lantern that's in Borne's chest, and it prevents him from disobeying Nic. And the PCs have to do the shadow-of-the-colossus thing and climb into him and blow it up before Borne will listen to reason. Something like that. Anyway, the line between brainstorming and rambling is a thin one.[/SIZE] Back on topic: I agree that PCs are pretty much always at full HP. (Damn cheap wands of CLW, PCs buy 'em by the bundle.) What they aren't always full on are "sticky" conditions. Like stat drain, or curses, or negative levels. These things require spells with expensive material components in order to alleviate (see: Restoration, Greater). And if the PCs aren't packing those spells (or willing to burn that kind of gold "until it gets bad enough"), then [I]that's[/I] what hangs around the high-level party's neck as they trudge through the dungeon. And those are exactly the sort of scrolls they'd want to buy in Flint after they liberate it from the Hex-Eater (which, again, can be tantamount to a full-rest). Anyway, I doubt I'll ever get this far :( but it's fun to think about. Such great enemies with such great statblocks. Love spending time reading and studying them. :) [/QUOTE]
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