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*Pathfinder & Starfinder
Rethinking the 3-Book Model
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<blockquote data-quote="Transformer" data-source="post: 5909636" data-attributes="member: 70008"><p>I've always thought the dragonborn controversy was a subset of the "DM-optional vs. player-optional" controversy. What I mean is, most of the "I do not tolerate dragonborn" people are DMs who do not like dragonborn in their games/worlds, and who would be reasonably satisfied if the PH included them as long as it explicitly said "these races are DM-optional; check with your DM to see if they exist in his world." On the other hand, the "I want my dragonborn dammit" people are largely players who want the PH to say "these are the options available to you as a player; tell your DM you're playing a dragonborn."</p><p></p><p>I guess what I'm saying is, excluding options some people don't like from core causes just as many problems as including them (by angering the people who want dragonborn to be core and available to all players). Pushing controversial options off to later supplements solves the problem not a bit; it would make the player-optional people just as frustrated. From what we've heard, Wizards is strongly erring on the side of including lots of stuff.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I think you're drastically overestimating the number of options that could be included in 300 pages. What with a reasonable selection of monsters (including all important iconic monsters), traps and trap-creation rules, all that DM advice necessary to make the books noob-friendly, all of the game rules (including skills, rules for exploration, rules for gridless combat, rules for tabletop combat, other modules), I wouldn't be surprised if 300 pages are needed before you even get to a single player option. Throw in 40 or 50 pages of magic items (including scrolls, wands, and various magic armor and weapons for 20 levels) too. How many classes (along with attendant feats and themes and races, remember) could you fit after that, especially if you need to give classes like the Fighter the optional ability to do more than full attack every round (and so, need a few dozen pages of "powers" or "martial maneuvers")?</p><p></p><p>I really don't see how it could be done. Even if there were only four races and classes and a handful of themes, I can't imagine how it could be compressed into 300 pages. 400, maybe, if you were willing to gut everything that is not absolutely positively indispensable.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>As for the core rulebooks vs. starter set, Wizards should position this new (and much improved) starter set as the right place for noobs to start, even going as far as to put a note in the PH saying "If you and your group are totally new, you want the starter set over there." But I suppose you're right; the more noob-friendly the core itself is, the better; there is no question some people will just not happen upon the starter set, or reject it out of hand.</p><p></p><p>Now, I don't think it's feasible to include the whole core rulebook in the starter set. If there were only one core rulebook then it wouldn't be a starter set at all, it would be an expanded core set! And if there were multiple core rulebooks and this starter set included only the PH, then it would basically be a "PH with a watered down DMG and MM" set, which would be the opposite of helpful. It would combine the difficulty of learning the game from the full core without the benefit of a full DMG to explain how to DM well! No, I'd still say we need a starter set with introductory versions of the books. Let people buy their own PH separately later; the cost would be nearly the same anyway.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Transformer, post: 5909636, member: 70008"] I've always thought the dragonborn controversy was a subset of the "DM-optional vs. player-optional" controversy. What I mean is, most of the "I do not tolerate dragonborn" people are DMs who do not like dragonborn in their games/worlds, and who would be reasonably satisfied if the PH included them as long as it explicitly said "these races are DM-optional; check with your DM to see if they exist in his world." On the other hand, the "I want my dragonborn dammit" people are largely players who want the PH to say "these are the options available to you as a player; tell your DM you're playing a dragonborn." I guess what I'm saying is, excluding options some people don't like from core causes just as many problems as including them (by angering the people who want dragonborn to be core and available to all players). Pushing controversial options off to later supplements solves the problem not a bit; it would make the player-optional people just as frustrated. From what we've heard, Wizards is strongly erring on the side of including lots of stuff. I think you're drastically overestimating the number of options that could be included in 300 pages. What with a reasonable selection of monsters (including all important iconic monsters), traps and trap-creation rules, all that DM advice necessary to make the books noob-friendly, all of the game rules (including skills, rules for exploration, rules for gridless combat, rules for tabletop combat, other modules), I wouldn't be surprised if 300 pages are needed before you even get to a single player option. Throw in 40 or 50 pages of magic items (including scrolls, wands, and various magic armor and weapons for 20 levels) too. How many classes (along with attendant feats and themes and races, remember) could you fit after that, especially if you need to give classes like the Fighter the optional ability to do more than full attack every round (and so, need a few dozen pages of "powers" or "martial maneuvers")? I really don't see how it could be done. Even if there were only four races and classes and a handful of themes, I can't imagine how it could be compressed into 300 pages. 400, maybe, if you were willing to gut everything that is not absolutely positively indispensable. As for the core rulebooks vs. starter set, Wizards should position this new (and much improved) starter set as the right place for noobs to start, even going as far as to put a note in the PH saying "If you and your group are totally new, you want the starter set over there." But I suppose you're right; the more noob-friendly the core itself is, the better; there is no question some people will just not happen upon the starter set, or reject it out of hand. Now, I don't think it's feasible to include the whole core rulebook in the starter set. If there were only one core rulebook then it wouldn't be a starter set at all, it would be an expanded core set! And if there were multiple core rulebooks and this starter set included only the PH, then it would basically be a "PH with a watered down DMG and MM" set, which would be the opposite of helpful. It would combine the difficulty of learning the game from the full core without the benefit of a full DMG to explain how to DM well! No, I'd still say we need a starter set with introductory versions of the books. Let people buy their own PH separately later; the cost would be nearly the same anyway. [/QUOTE]
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