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D&D Older Editions
Retro-cloning D&D 3.0
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<blockquote data-quote="Peregrinus88" data-source="post: 9166542" data-attributes="member: 7043309"><p>I loved 3e growing up. I think I completely resonate with the OP comments in regards what I think might have happened with the transition from 2e to 3e. I stopped playing for years when 3.5 came out. But it always turned me off for how much was available to choose from for min maxing. I loved the idea of more customization, but something about so much of it was designed from the perspective of how to power creep the game. </p><p></p><p>I remember someone from an OSR reddit post I think that said he considered there were 3 schools of D&D...</p><p>1) OD&D - 1ish </p><p>2) 2e-3e</p><p>3) 4e-5e</p><p></p><p>I think there are overlapping mentalities for each different school, and it creates a strange idea to segment things from the different schools. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. For myself I think I overlap between 1 and 2... I want the mechanics to support customization, and even allows overpowering of characters, but I hate min-maxing characters. Maybe it is a juxtaposition that others would hate, but I love playing in this manner. I loved playing B/X, but my heart always loved the CMI additions even more with than the B/X stuff. I loved the OD&D books and some of 1e, but I loved the 2e kits even more. Man, I loved playing Baldur's Gate 1 & 2, Icewind Dales. And Icewind Dale 2 I loved in the same series even though it transitioned to using 3E ruleset... and I think it relates to this thread. </p><p></p><p>Sometimes I wonder if it would be great to read a book that describes the history of transition from 3e to 3.5, something like how Jon Briggs (?sic?) wrote in regards to the conflicts in early AD&D history. Did Skip Williams and Jonathon Tweet leaving make a big difference in how writing out the books were handled? I mean, they even invited Gary Gygax in the earlier part of writing 3e. To be honest, I'm completely clueless in regards to the personalities of 3e compared to the earlier editions, mostly because I find the OSR crowd fixating on Gary Gygax, Arnesson, and the like vs 3e guys. If anyone has any book or blog suggestions, I'd love to hear them.</p><p></p><p>And I know some people played 3e for power playing, its cool. I mean, happens in every game I guess. I just always have a feeling other people played 3e for different reasons than I did, and most of the ones that loved 3e for all its warts never transitioned to 3.5. Most online places keep saying how 3.5 balanced things better, but then they always had more problems with different things. It always seemed like 3.5 was balancing things for people who wanted to keep and keep and keep power playing, and I just wanted a really awesome toolkit to play with and jived the same as 2e, but with some differences. I mean... action economy, feats, skill rules (and I think BEMCI and AD&D 2e had great ones too), and so on... 2.5e/BECMI/3e was great! I'm sure 3.5 and pathfinder 1e are great too... but 3e just had this 2e thing going on that seemed I would miss. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I love your house rules. my thought though was would you take away the penalty of armor check penatly... I always thought it was an intentional choice to discourage the idea of Dwarf rogues? Plus with dwarf strength, you should be able to carry more stuff before the penalty applies. Honestly I'm almost inclined to consider bumping up to 5e suggestion of 25 ft. movement (though I love the idea of super slow dwarves no matter what! loved it when playing Kings of war miniature game) I thought 3e idea of everyone being penalized with armor check penalty was too good, even more so for dwarves. or homebrew an armor set of mithral (more exclusive to dwarfs) being less weight? </p><p></p><p>Brilliant! I'm taking that idea!</p><p></p><p>I always had to revert group initiative back to dynamic. I always hated individual initiative. I've always prefered the 2e 2d10 reaction check. Allowed more clashing between alignment differences to determine the reaction of the monster when you want granular differences. </p><p></p><p>For me, the only mistakes of 3e that I think should be redone in rework is different experience levels for the characters. Spellcasters will ALWAYS outshine martial at later levels. And I think that is ok! Only ingame mechanisms like AoO and punishing spellcasters with making them earn their higher level spells will make it fairer for martial characters. I've tried giving powerful items or more feats to fighters, but it just always made it harder to challenge the players. Then it also made the game into a 5e power problem of fighters and spellcasters being the same at every stage.</p><p></p><p>The other mistake was giving drow a charisma bonus... I mean... come on... </p><p>That was the start of tieflings changing from a negative to bonus modifier...</p><p></p><p>Long rant, but only cause I love 3e!</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Peregrinus88, post: 9166542, member: 7043309"] I loved 3e growing up. I think I completely resonate with the OP comments in regards what I think might have happened with the transition from 2e to 3e. I stopped playing for years when 3.5 came out. But it always turned me off for how much was available to choose from for min maxing. I loved the idea of more customization, but something about so much of it was designed from the perspective of how to power creep the game. I remember someone from an OSR reddit post I think that said he considered there were 3 schools of D&D... 1) OD&D - 1ish 2) 2e-3e 3) 4e-5e I think there are overlapping mentalities for each different school, and it creates a strange idea to segment things from the different schools. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. For myself I think I overlap between 1 and 2... I want the mechanics to support customization, and even allows overpowering of characters, but I hate min-maxing characters. Maybe it is a juxtaposition that others would hate, but I love playing in this manner. I loved playing B/X, but my heart always loved the CMI additions even more with than the B/X stuff. I loved the OD&D books and some of 1e, but I loved the 2e kits even more. Man, I loved playing Baldur's Gate 1 & 2, Icewind Dales. And Icewind Dale 2 I loved in the same series even though it transitioned to using 3E ruleset... and I think it relates to this thread. Sometimes I wonder if it would be great to read a book that describes the history of transition from 3e to 3.5, something like how Jon Briggs (?sic?) wrote in regards to the conflicts in early AD&D history. Did Skip Williams and Jonathon Tweet leaving make a big difference in how writing out the books were handled? I mean, they even invited Gary Gygax in the earlier part of writing 3e. To be honest, I'm completely clueless in regards to the personalities of 3e compared to the earlier editions, mostly because I find the OSR crowd fixating on Gary Gygax, Arnesson, and the like vs 3e guys. If anyone has any book or blog suggestions, I'd love to hear them. And I know some people played 3e for power playing, its cool. I mean, happens in every game I guess. I just always have a feeling other people played 3e for different reasons than I did, and most of the ones that loved 3e for all its warts never transitioned to 3.5. Most online places keep saying how 3.5 balanced things better, but then they always had more problems with different things. It always seemed like 3.5 was balancing things for people who wanted to keep and keep and keep power playing, and I just wanted a really awesome toolkit to play with and jived the same as 2e, but with some differences. I mean... action economy, feats, skill rules (and I think BEMCI and AD&D 2e had great ones too), and so on... 2.5e/BECMI/3e was great! I'm sure 3.5 and pathfinder 1e are great too... but 3e just had this 2e thing going on that seemed I would miss. I love your house rules. my thought though was would you take away the penalty of armor check penatly... I always thought it was an intentional choice to discourage the idea of Dwarf rogues? Plus with dwarf strength, you should be able to carry more stuff before the penalty applies. Honestly I'm almost inclined to consider bumping up to 5e suggestion of 25 ft. movement (though I love the idea of super slow dwarves no matter what! loved it when playing Kings of war miniature game) I thought 3e idea of everyone being penalized with armor check penalty was too good, even more so for dwarves. or homebrew an armor set of mithral (more exclusive to dwarfs) being less weight? Brilliant! I'm taking that idea! I always had to revert group initiative back to dynamic. I always hated individual initiative. I've always prefered the 2e 2d10 reaction check. Allowed more clashing between alignment differences to determine the reaction of the monster when you want granular differences. For me, the only mistakes of 3e that I think should be redone in rework is different experience levels for the characters. Spellcasters will ALWAYS outshine martial at later levels. And I think that is ok! Only ingame mechanisms like AoO and punishing spellcasters with making them earn their higher level spells will make it fairer for martial characters. I've tried giving powerful items or more feats to fighters, but it just always made it harder to challenge the players. Then it also made the game into a 5e power problem of fighters and spellcasters being the same at every stage. The other mistake was giving drow a charisma bonus... I mean... come on... That was the start of tieflings changing from a negative to bonus modifier... Long rant, but only cause I love 3e! [/QUOTE]
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