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Reviewing, Revising, and Finalizing Prehistoric Animals and Dinosaur Ecology
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<blockquote data-quote="Cleon" data-source="post: 4983033" data-attributes="member: 57383"><p>Well I'd consider both of those Fantasy Dinosaurs so they aren't really relevant. Now I quite like fantasy versions of theropod dinosaurs, but they're not really germane to this thread.</p><p> </p><p></p><p></p><p>I have a couple of problems with that approach. Firstly, it's a holdover from the 3.0 edition of D&D. In the original 3rd edition Monster Manual both <em>Tyrannosaurus</em> and <em>Megaraptor</em> were Huge Tall creatures too (10 [FONT=&quot]×[/FONT]10 space, 15 foot reach). When they updated to 3.5 they changed them both to short-reach creatures, and dropped Megaraptor down to Large.</p><p></p><p>Making <em>Tyrannosaurus</em> or <em>Allosaurus</em> the same space/reach as a 16-32 foot tall giant doesn't jibe very well with me, at least for a version based on more modern reconstructions (I have no objection to a 3.0 edition Tall <em>Tyrannosaurus</em> as a towering tail-dragger straight out of a pulp novel or b&w film).</p><p></p><p>If the <em>Tyrannosaurus</em> and <em>Allosaurus</em> were Huge Long creature (10 [FONT=&quot]×[/FONT]20 space, 10 foot reach) under 3.0 rules they would work out about 40 feet long under the Space plus twice Reach rule-of-thumb (20+10+10), which seems a perfectly good fit.</p><p> </p><p></p><p> </p><p>Yes, well I tend to consider those weight limits more are guidelines. There are a fair few creatures that break them. For example, the SRD lion is Large sized and listed as weighing 330-550 pounds for the larger males. If, say, an average lion weighs 350 pounds that's 70% of the minimum standard weight limit of a Large creature. A Gargantuan beast with the same 70% mass would be 22400 pounds, which is pretty much spot on the upper weight estimates for the largest theropods - except for <em>Spinosaurus aegypticus</em>, of course.</p><p></p><p>I imagine Theropod dinosaurs were pretty lightweight but extremely strong, they did have weight saving adaptations involving air-sacs and hollowed bones after all, so I consider a Gargantuan short-reached <em>Tyrannosaurus</em> quite acceptable. Besides, the 3.5 edition SRD <em>Tyrannosaurus </em>advances to Gargantuan size, and I didn't want to change it. Although I draw the line at the 3.0 and d20 Modern version which advances to Colossal, that's as crazy as the SRD tiger growing to Huge size!</p><p></p><p>Besides, I'm happy to allow for a 50 foot long carnosaur. Even if we don't have any reliable fossil evidence they grew that big, it's not that much longer than the largest known non-Spinosaur, and I consider a bit of exaggeration quite forgivable in a fantasy RPG like D&D.</p><p></p><p>And remember, I'm not arguing that all of the "supersize" carnosaurs should be Gargantuan, only exceptionally big outliers. E.g. the vast majority of adult <em>Giganotosaurus</em> would be Huge, but very rare individuals have advanced enough extra Hit Dice to become Gargantuan.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Afraid not, the D&D Tyrannosaurus had 18 Hit Dice in both 1st and 2nd edition AD&D, so if anything the D&D SRD's 18 HD has 'Legacy Value'.</p><p> </p><p></p><p></p><p>I still don't care for switching between long and short reach for different sized animals.</p><p></p><p>Firstly, they're build in the same proportions, so I'd prefer them to have the same reach.</p><p> </p><p>Secondly, it raises a problem with Advancement, especially with theropods that have a wide range of sizes. Wouldn't you'd be having thing like Advancement: 7-10 HD (Large short); 8-14 (Large long); 15-12 (Huge short)?</p><p></p><p>That just seems cumbersome to me.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Yes, the largest hadrosaur species would certainly be Gargantuan in 3E D&D terms as "average adults". That's not really what I'm shooting for with theropods, were I fancy having particularly big specimens reaching that size after a lot of HD Advancement.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Cleon, post: 4983033, member: 57383"] Well I'd consider both of those Fantasy Dinosaurs so they aren't really relevant. Now I quite like fantasy versions of theropod dinosaurs, but they're not really germane to this thread. I have a couple of problems with that approach. Firstly, it's a holdover from the 3.0 edition of D&D. In the original 3rd edition Monster Manual both [I]Tyrannosaurus[/I] and [I]Megaraptor[/I] were Huge Tall creatures too (10 [FONT="]×[/FONT]10 space, 15 foot reach). When they updated to 3.5 they changed them both to short-reach creatures, and dropped Megaraptor down to Large. Making [I]Tyrannosaurus[/I] or [I]Allosaurus[/I] the same space/reach as a 16-32 foot tall giant doesn't jibe very well with me, at least for a version based on more modern reconstructions (I have no objection to a 3.0 edition Tall [I]Tyrannosaurus[/I] as a towering tail-dragger straight out of a pulp novel or b&w film). If the [I]Tyrannosaurus[/I] and [I]Allosaurus[/I] were Huge Long creature (10 [FONT="]×[/FONT]20 space, 10 foot reach) under 3.0 rules they would work out about 40 feet long under the Space plus twice Reach rule-of-thumb (20+10+10), which seems a perfectly good fit. Yes, well I tend to consider those weight limits more are guidelines. There are a fair few creatures that break them. For example, the SRD lion is Large sized and listed as weighing 330-550 pounds for the larger males. If, say, an average lion weighs 350 pounds that's 70% of the minimum standard weight limit of a Large creature. A Gargantuan beast with the same 70% mass would be 22400 pounds, which is pretty much spot on the upper weight estimates for the largest theropods - except for [I]Spinosaurus aegypticus[/I], of course. I imagine Theropod dinosaurs were pretty lightweight but extremely strong, they did have weight saving adaptations involving air-sacs and hollowed bones after all, so I consider a Gargantuan short-reached [I]Tyrannosaurus[/I] quite acceptable. Besides, the 3.5 edition SRD [I]Tyrannosaurus [/I]advances to Gargantuan size, and I didn't want to change it. Although I draw the line at the 3.0 and d20 Modern version which advances to Colossal, that's as crazy as the SRD tiger growing to Huge size! Besides, I'm happy to allow for a 50 foot long carnosaur. Even if we don't have any reliable fossil evidence they grew that big, it's not that much longer than the largest known non-Spinosaur, and I consider a bit of exaggeration quite forgivable in a fantasy RPG like D&D. And remember, I'm not arguing that all of the "supersize" carnosaurs should be Gargantuan, only exceptionally big outliers. E.g. the vast majority of adult [I]Giganotosaurus[/I] would be Huge, but very rare individuals have advanced enough extra Hit Dice to become Gargantuan. Afraid not, the D&D Tyrannosaurus had 18 Hit Dice in both 1st and 2nd edition AD&D, so if anything the D&D SRD's 18 HD has 'Legacy Value'. I still don't care for switching between long and short reach for different sized animals. Firstly, they're build in the same proportions, so I'd prefer them to have the same reach. Secondly, it raises a problem with Advancement, especially with theropods that have a wide range of sizes. Wouldn't you'd be having thing like Advancement: 7-10 HD (Large short); 8-14 (Large long); 15-12 (Huge short)? That just seems cumbersome to me. Yes, the largest hadrosaur species would certainly be Gargantuan in 3E D&D terms as "average adults". That's not really what I'm shooting for with theropods, were I fancy having particularly big specimens reaching that size after a lot of HD Advancement. [/QUOTE]
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