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<blockquote data-quote="Chaosmancer" data-source="post: 7483733" data-attributes="member: 6801228"><p>So, I already mentioned familiars aren't beasts 99% of the time (1% is GM Fiat for bonding with mundane beasts). They are Fey, Fiend of Celestial spirits from the spell explicitly, and abberations, dragons, ect from most of the MM optional rules. So why you included them with the list of Guard Dogs and Horses I won't understand. </p><p></p><p>Also, horses, other that someone really trying to a cavalry build, how often do the mundane horses the party buys to travel with involved in the combats you run? For me, pretty much never because they aren't a signifigant factor and they would clutter the field. Also, never seen a player buy a guard dog, pretty much ever. </p><p></p><p></p><p>And, I'm just going to go down those spells you listed, real quick. </p><p></p><p>Beast Sense - Allows you to see through the beast's eyes. Says nothing about the beast sticking around after the spell, and does not create a beast, so you already need a beast around to even use this spell. Why is that important? Because you said "the fighting style is useful with all beasts the party has with them" and I said "The party having beasts follow them around isn't all that common" Replying with, "here is a spell people use when they have beasts following them around" doesn't actually answer the initial question. </p><p> </p><p>Animal Messenger - Turns an animal into a carrier pigeon. Actually, this one specifies the beast only returns if the message fails to deliver (and then only to where you cast it so if you've since left, tough luck), so you lose whichever beast you used to cast this spell. Luckily you can take any beast that happens to be nearby, but this doesn't add a beast to the party roster in any way. </p><p></p><p>Speak With Animals - Does what is says on the box. Let's you talk to animals. Now, this could be used to increase your chances of getting an animal to join the party for an adventure. But, that requires effort to be put forth by the caster. Generally though, this spell is used to gather information, allowing you to know what the animals have seen or know. </p><p></p><p>Animal Friendship - Let's the beast no you mean it no harm, and charms it for 24 hrs. See, one thing that is a minor pet peeve of mine is the charm effect, because it is really limited compared to what a lot of my players think it should do. Charm gives you advantage on social checks and prevents the charmed target from attacking you. So you have advantage for 24 hours on convincing the beast to follow you, and it won't attack you, but that doesn't mean it will fight for you or that it will follow you into an obviously dangerous area like an undead infested tomb or a dangerous creatures lair. You aren't mind controlling it after all, just really persuasive. </p><p></p><p>Beast Bond - Telepathic link that allows you to speak with a beast that is friendly or charmed. Also gives it advantage on attacks on enemies adjacent to you. Hadn't read this one in Xanathar's yet, but exactly like Beast Sense, this requires a beast to already be present in the game to have any effect. </p><p></p><p></p><p>So, from your list of spells to gain animal friends... 3 of the five require you to already have an animal friend and do nothing to help you get an animal friend. Two of them make you more likely to convince an animal to be your friend. </p><p></p><p></p><p>Now, I'm not saying a ranger can't go out every day, charm a badger or a squirrel or a hawk, make some Animal Handling checks, get it's undying loyalty to follow him around and fight for him, and command an entire menagerie of beasts. Sure, that could happen. I'm saying it pretty much never does happen. You might get two animals following the party around, not counting the horses the party rides. And, a large percentage of the time, let's say 85% those animals are not fit for combat, nor will the player want them involved in combat. So, your fighting style which allows you to command a beast as a bonus action and take damage for that beast if you are nearby, isn't exactly getting a lot of usage unless a player specifically wants a combat beast and therefore they likely took the beastmaster subclass. </p><p></p><p>So, your fighting style is, like I said before, really only useful for a beastmaster, unless you've got a party that has a large number of wild animals following them around for some strange reason. Because getting beasts in the party composition is A) difficult by RAW and B) kind of pointless by mid-levels since most of them are incredibly weak and the party can do all the same things with their other abilities that they could have done by spending weeks of game time training a beast. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Well, that is a style of play that is more common. I wasn't saying "Beastmaster is old school" I was saying that if the idea was a disposable wave of bodies that is a play style that hasn't been well received in the community for a very long time. </p><p></p><p>If you want to throw up other random comparisons that have nothing to do with what we are talking about, be my guest, but don't expect it to change anyone's minds on the topic at hand.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Chaosmancer, post: 7483733, member: 6801228"] So, I already mentioned familiars aren't beasts 99% of the time (1% is GM Fiat for bonding with mundane beasts). They are Fey, Fiend of Celestial spirits from the spell explicitly, and abberations, dragons, ect from most of the MM optional rules. So why you included them with the list of Guard Dogs and Horses I won't understand. Also, horses, other that someone really trying to a cavalry build, how often do the mundane horses the party buys to travel with involved in the combats you run? For me, pretty much never because they aren't a signifigant factor and they would clutter the field. Also, never seen a player buy a guard dog, pretty much ever. And, I'm just going to go down those spells you listed, real quick. Beast Sense - Allows you to see through the beast's eyes. Says nothing about the beast sticking around after the spell, and does not create a beast, so you already need a beast around to even use this spell. Why is that important? Because you said "the fighting style is useful with all beasts the party has with them" and I said "The party having beasts follow them around isn't all that common" Replying with, "here is a spell people use when they have beasts following them around" doesn't actually answer the initial question. Animal Messenger - Turns an animal into a carrier pigeon. Actually, this one specifies the beast only returns if the message fails to deliver (and then only to where you cast it so if you've since left, tough luck), so you lose whichever beast you used to cast this spell. Luckily you can take any beast that happens to be nearby, but this doesn't add a beast to the party roster in any way. Speak With Animals - Does what is says on the box. Let's you talk to animals. Now, this could be used to increase your chances of getting an animal to join the party for an adventure. But, that requires effort to be put forth by the caster. Generally though, this spell is used to gather information, allowing you to know what the animals have seen or know. Animal Friendship - Let's the beast no you mean it no harm, and charms it for 24 hrs. See, one thing that is a minor pet peeve of mine is the charm effect, because it is really limited compared to what a lot of my players think it should do. Charm gives you advantage on social checks and prevents the charmed target from attacking you. So you have advantage for 24 hours on convincing the beast to follow you, and it won't attack you, but that doesn't mean it will fight for you or that it will follow you into an obviously dangerous area like an undead infested tomb or a dangerous creatures lair. You aren't mind controlling it after all, just really persuasive. Beast Bond - Telepathic link that allows you to speak with a beast that is friendly or charmed. Also gives it advantage on attacks on enemies adjacent to you. Hadn't read this one in Xanathar's yet, but exactly like Beast Sense, this requires a beast to already be present in the game to have any effect. So, from your list of spells to gain animal friends... 3 of the five require you to already have an animal friend and do nothing to help you get an animal friend. Two of them make you more likely to convince an animal to be your friend. Now, I'm not saying a ranger can't go out every day, charm a badger or a squirrel or a hawk, make some Animal Handling checks, get it's undying loyalty to follow him around and fight for him, and command an entire menagerie of beasts. Sure, that could happen. I'm saying it pretty much never does happen. You might get two animals following the party around, not counting the horses the party rides. And, a large percentage of the time, let's say 85% those animals are not fit for combat, nor will the player want them involved in combat. So, your fighting style which allows you to command a beast as a bonus action and take damage for that beast if you are nearby, isn't exactly getting a lot of usage unless a player specifically wants a combat beast and therefore they likely took the beastmaster subclass. So, your fighting style is, like I said before, really only useful for a beastmaster, unless you've got a party that has a large number of wild animals following them around for some strange reason. Because getting beasts in the party composition is A) difficult by RAW and B) kind of pointless by mid-levels since most of them are incredibly weak and the party can do all the same things with their other abilities that they could have done by spending weeks of game time training a beast. Well, that is a style of play that is more common. I wasn't saying "Beastmaster is old school" I was saying that if the idea was a disposable wave of bodies that is a play style that hasn't been well received in the community for a very long time. If you want to throw up other random comparisons that have nothing to do with what we are talking about, be my guest, but don't expect it to change anyone's minds on the topic at hand. [/QUOTE]
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