Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Rogue's Been in an Awkward Place, And This Survey Might Be Our Last Chance to Let WotC Know.
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="tetrasodium" data-source="post: 9255925" data-attributes="member: 93670"><p>The GM could also decide based on which player has the longest hair or the most colorful shirt! Of course neither of those do anything to addresses the problems that result from (dis)advantage being designed exclusively for some flavor of "oh I help" either. There is no value in suggesting "a method" in if it does nothing to address the problem because 5e was printed with (dis)advantage as the only tool available.</p><p></p><p> It doesn't matter what criticism other tools may or may not have deserved because we are talking about the inability of (dis)advantage to be leveraged for collaboration any more involved than one single player saying some variation of "oh and I help bob" no matter how descriptive they are with that help. There are severe mechanical problems with this distraction & I'll address them (again) first before getting to the rest. </p><p></p><p>I've linked to a post with the literal dmg entries for <a href="https://www.enworld.org/threads/giving-an-ad-d-feel-to-5e.679228/post-8241363" target="_blank">dm's best friend & bonus types</a> in it more than once in this back & forth, there's no reason to be unaware of it like this. The first mechanical problem is that there shouldn't be "twelve different modifiers" on a trap players are working on collaboratively because the dm's best friend entry literally advises against such a thing where it says "[ispoiler]<em>You can add modifiers endlessly <strong>(doing so is <u>not</u> really a good thing, since it slows down play),</strong> but the point is, other than the PC’s Listen check modifier, the only numbers that the DM and the player need to remember when calculating all the situational modifiers are +2 and –2. Multiple conditions add up to give the check a total modifier and the DC a final value</em>[/ispoiler]<em>.</em>". The second mechanical breakdown in your quibble is even more severe because DC's were not set in a way that aligns with that, you can see it <a href="https://www.enworld.org/threads/hot-take-d-d-has-not-recovered-from-2e-to-3-0-transition.693849/post-8861111" target="_blank">here</a> and the critical column was "who <u><em>could</em></u> do it" allowing the GM to select a DC somewhat or far beyond what any one PC is capable of even with a nat20/taking 20 in order to create a situation where the group must work collaboratively as a team to do what none of them could possibly do on their own.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>That boldf bit is singular not plural. You literally just confirmed that 5e's (dis)advantage mechanic is incapable of supporting the GM in getting multiple player<strong><u><em><span style="font-size: 26px">S</span></em></u></strong> to work together collaboratively on a problem. That's a big problem because the entire concept of teamwork collapses into a radioactive dumpster fire of adversarial feeling pixelbitching where each player tries to find what they think is the correct answer the GM is looking for or they resort to working in isolated but parallel efforts where each player is trying to solve the problem on their own rather than engaging in any sort of <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5At3bTi04M" target="_blank">reciprocity</a> deeper than some equivalent of "oh I help". Once again...</p><p></p><p>(dis)advantage is a hammer that can never be a screwdriver or drill-bit or chisel, but 5e threw out every tool other than the hammer in order to force the singular use of (dis)advantage for any and all situations</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="tetrasodium, post: 9255925, member: 93670"] The GM could also decide based on which player has the longest hair or the most colorful shirt! Of course neither of those do anything to addresses the problems that result from (dis)advantage being designed exclusively for some flavor of "oh I help" either. There is no value in suggesting "a method" in if it does nothing to address the problem because 5e was printed with (dis)advantage as the only tool available. It doesn't matter what criticism other tools may or may not have deserved because we are talking about the inability of (dis)advantage to be leveraged for collaboration any more involved than one single player saying some variation of "oh and I help bob" no matter how descriptive they are with that help. There are severe mechanical problems with this distraction & I'll address them (again) first before getting to the rest. I've linked to a post with the literal dmg entries for [URL='https://www.enworld.org/threads/giving-an-ad-d-feel-to-5e.679228/post-8241363']dm's best friend & bonus types[/URL] in it more than once in this back & forth, there's no reason to be unaware of it like this. The first mechanical problem is that there shouldn't be "twelve different modifiers" on a trap players are working on collaboratively because the dm's best friend entry literally advises against such a thing where it says "[ispoiler][I]You can add modifiers endlessly [B](doing so is [U]not[/U] really a good thing, since it slows down play),[/B] but the point is, other than the PC’s Listen check modifier, the only numbers that the DM and the player need to remember when calculating all the situational modifiers are +2 and –2. Multiple conditions add up to give the check a total modifier and the DC a final value[/I][/ispoiler][I].[/I]". The second mechanical breakdown in your quibble is even more severe because DC's were not set in a way that aligns with that, you can see it [URL='https://www.enworld.org/threads/hot-take-d-d-has-not-recovered-from-2e-to-3-0-transition.693849/post-8861111']here[/URL] and the critical column was "who [U][I]could[/I][/U] do it" allowing the GM to select a DC somewhat or far beyond what any one PC is capable of even with a nat20/taking 20 in order to create a situation where the group must work collaboratively as a team to do what none of them could possibly do on their own. That boldf bit is singular not plural. You literally just confirmed that 5e's (dis)advantage mechanic is incapable of supporting the GM in getting multiple player[B][U][I][SIZE=7]S[/SIZE][/I][/U][/B] to work together collaboratively on a problem. That's a big problem because the entire concept of teamwork collapses into a radioactive dumpster fire of adversarial feeling pixelbitching where each player tries to find what they think is the correct answer the GM is looking for or they resort to working in isolated but parallel efforts where each player is trying to solve the problem on their own rather than engaging in any sort of [URL='https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5At3bTi04M']reciprocity[/URL] deeper than some equivalent of "oh I help". Once again... (dis)advantage is a hammer that can never be a screwdriver or drill-bit or chisel, but 5e threw out every tool other than the hammer in order to force the singular use of (dis)advantage for any and all situations [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Rogue's Been in an Awkward Place, And This Survey Might Be Our Last Chance to Let WotC Know.
Top