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RPG Combat: Sport or War?
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<blockquote data-quote="Sunseeker" data-source="post: 7726395"><p>For a grog such as yourself, I find it odd that you consider this a "problem", weren't many of the original modules, especially the ones Gygax himself had a hand in essentially meat-grinders? Haven't many of your posts been talking about how the older stuff, which was on average much less forgiving than the modern stuff, significantly better?</p><p></p><p>Now I understand the human brain is capable of holding opposing positions, but I see your statement as a <em>feature</em> of combat as a sport. Players will either need to "play smart" or "die". Yeah okay I don't have a problem with that. "Frequent" on it's own doesn't have much meaning. One or two deaths per combat? One or two deaths per session with multiple combats? We've got to be able to find common ground here in order to establish "frequency" in order to have any sort of discussion about if it's a tough hurdle. I've had players who think "frequent" is "once is too many" and I've had players who don't think every combat is frequent enough.</p><p></p><p>"Frequent" death is a problem if players do not wish to play smart, wish to have things handed to them, or don't come prepared with backup characters. Even in my soft games, I advise everyone make at least <em>one</em> backup.</p><p> </p><p></p><p>Sort of? Overwhelming success if obviously the goal, but there's an opportunity cost to preparation. If every day that you wait your enemy becomes better armed, then the objective is of course to get the <em>best possible</em> advantage given the situation. </p><p></p><p>This problem with this statement is that we're quickly mixing up the definition of "fair". Is a fight between two cheaters fair? What if cheating and deception are part of the game? </p><p></p><p>There are two definitions of fair at work in this same sentence.</p><p>"Fair" in terms of "equally matched combatants".</p><p>and</p><p>"Fair" in terms of honorable and rule-abiding.</p><p></p><p>Combat as a sport can be both. But it is typically <em>at least</em> "fair" in the terms of roughly equally matched combatants. Deceit and deception may be the tools of Team A, while strength and power may be the tools of Team B. They may not be mirrors, but their respective level of skill within their domains puts them on par with each other.</p><p> </p><p></p><p>Maybe, but again there's an opportunity cost. You cannot achieve victory without some form of engagement. Be it political, moral, social, or physical. The line "You win a war by making the other poor dumb guy die for his." is fitting...and yet, soldiers still die. Clearly you can't make an omlette without breaking a few eggs.</p><p> </p><p></p><p>Maybe. I'm fairly certain she got a chance to land some epic TPKs on you with that logic, since ya know <em>you</em> are the bad guys in the eyes of the bad guys.</p><p></p><p>That's sort of the problem I feel "combat as war" generates. Players get under the impression that they should be the only overwhelming force, and it can lead to adversarial DMing, because what's good for the goose is good for the gander.</p><p> </p><p></p><p>Lolz, speak for yourself man. I get that some people find that engaging but kindly don't treat the entire hobby like the goal is to coddle the players into making their game into a heroic epic. </p><p> </p><p></p><p>You just <em>did</em>. Please don't treat us like we're idiots who can't read. It's insulting.</p><p></p><p>In summary: I find your logic hollow and your arguments shallow at best. You speak of using strategy but then talk about how the DM should arrange for the players to win. You address your enemy as a static, unchanging element (a poor strategy) and you speak of your wife's frustrations in a manner that is rather disrespectful to the DM. We grow through loss, and also through victory, but rarely from either one alone. If you want to tell a story about Victor the Victorious, write a book. If you want to play a game that provides challenge and presents the possibility of loss as a potential outcome, I've always got a seat open.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Sunseeker, post: 7726395"] For a grog such as yourself, I find it odd that you consider this a "problem", weren't many of the original modules, especially the ones Gygax himself had a hand in essentially meat-grinders? Haven't many of your posts been talking about how the older stuff, which was on average much less forgiving than the modern stuff, significantly better? Now I understand the human brain is capable of holding opposing positions, but I see your statement as a [I]feature[/I] of combat as a sport. Players will either need to "play smart" or "die". Yeah okay I don't have a problem with that. "Frequent" on it's own doesn't have much meaning. One or two deaths per combat? One or two deaths per session with multiple combats? We've got to be able to find common ground here in order to establish "frequency" in order to have any sort of discussion about if it's a tough hurdle. I've had players who think "frequent" is "once is too many" and I've had players who don't think every combat is frequent enough. "Frequent" death is a problem if players do not wish to play smart, wish to have things handed to them, or don't come prepared with backup characters. Even in my soft games, I advise everyone make at least [I]one[/I] backup. Sort of? Overwhelming success if obviously the goal, but there's an opportunity cost to preparation. If every day that you wait your enemy becomes better armed, then the objective is of course to get the [I]best possible[/I] advantage given the situation. This problem with this statement is that we're quickly mixing up the definition of "fair". Is a fight between two cheaters fair? What if cheating and deception are part of the game? There are two definitions of fair at work in this same sentence. "Fair" in terms of "equally matched combatants". and "Fair" in terms of honorable and rule-abiding. Combat as a sport can be both. But it is typically [I]at least[/I] "fair" in the terms of roughly equally matched combatants. Deceit and deception may be the tools of Team A, while strength and power may be the tools of Team B. They may not be mirrors, but their respective level of skill within their domains puts them on par with each other. Maybe, but again there's an opportunity cost. You cannot achieve victory without some form of engagement. Be it political, moral, social, or physical. The line "You win a war by making the other poor dumb guy die for his." is fitting...and yet, soldiers still die. Clearly you can't make an omlette without breaking a few eggs. Maybe. I'm fairly certain she got a chance to land some epic TPKs on you with that logic, since ya know [I]you[/I] are the bad guys in the eyes of the bad guys. That's sort of the problem I feel "combat as war" generates. Players get under the impression that they should be the only overwhelming force, and it can lead to adversarial DMing, because what's good for the goose is good for the gander. Lolz, speak for yourself man. I get that some people find that engaging but kindly don't treat the entire hobby like the goal is to coddle the players into making their game into a heroic epic. You just [I]did[/I]. Please don't treat us like we're idiots who can't read. It's insulting. In summary: I find your logic hollow and your arguments shallow at best. You speak of using strategy but then talk about how the DM should arrange for the players to win. You address your enemy as a static, unchanging element (a poor strategy) and you speak of your wife's frustrations in a manner that is rather disrespectful to the DM. We grow through loss, and also through victory, but rarely from either one alone. If you want to tell a story about Victor the Victorious, write a book. If you want to play a game that provides challenge and presents the possibility of loss as a potential outcome, I've always got a seat open. [/QUOTE]
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