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RPG Combat: Sport or War?
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<blockquote data-quote="lewpuls" data-source="post: 7726439" data-attributes="member: 30518"><p>Shidaku, there's a big difference between "harder" and "let's kill some people" in old D&D. I never used nor played in those "meat-grinder" modules. I don't believe in human sacrifice.</p><p></p><p></p><p>The problem isn't whether combat is nasty or nice, it's more practical: if the players lose at anything like the rate you'd expect from a fair fight, they'd never get anywhere, unless (perhaps) they rise in levels very quickly. Even the best NBA, NFL, MLB teams lose 25-33% of the time. Those teams are playing as smart as they can within the fair-play system, and still lose that often.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Yes, even in successful war, soldiers die. Did I say they shouldn't?</p><p></p><p></p><p>Notice also, I don't advocate players as "overwhelming force that cannot be denied." No, you don't need to stack the game *heavily* in favor of the other side, IF your players take "combat as war" to heart. That means things like gathering intelligence (taking prisoners!?), scouting, even reconnaissance in force (scouts try hard not to engage the enemy, recon may involve engagement). And an unwillingness to fight unless there's no alternative, combined with a willingness to flee when things go badly.</p><p></p><p></p><p>In summary, you're setting up a straw man and then criticizing me for advocating what I did not advocate. I am definitely not of a "coddle the players" mentality, though I know many players now *expect* to be coddled and looked after, not only in RPGs but in a great many video game genres. They automatically blame the GM (or the game) if they fail. (And often expect the game to be "all about ME".) Anyone beginning a campaign nowadays who wants to avoid coddling players would be wise to describe the adventuring group as military based, in a war of sorts, before anything gets started.</p><p></p><p></p><p>EthanSental, I have no idea who shidaku is, no past history that I know of.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Saelorn, quite true.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Yes, 3e arranged combats that certainly weren't fair fights, but had the potential to harm if the players screwed up too much instead of only a little. The 5e method seems to be to make it really hard for any PC to get killed.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Aenghus, yes, creativity is subjective. I think of it as finding unconventional ways to solve problems. Many people seem to think of it as a kind of "brain fever," a profusion of wild ideas, that somehow turns out well.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="lewpuls, post: 7726439, member: 30518"] Shidaku, there's a big difference between "harder" and "let's kill some people" in old D&D. I never used nor played in those "meat-grinder" modules. I don't believe in human sacrifice. The problem isn't whether combat is nasty or nice, it's more practical: if the players lose at anything like the rate you'd expect from a fair fight, they'd never get anywhere, unless (perhaps) they rise in levels very quickly. Even the best NBA, NFL, MLB teams lose 25-33% of the time. Those teams are playing as smart as they can within the fair-play system, and still lose that often. Yes, even in successful war, soldiers die. Did I say they shouldn't? Notice also, I don't advocate players as "overwhelming force that cannot be denied." No, you don't need to stack the game *heavily* in favor of the other side, IF your players take "combat as war" to heart. That means things like gathering intelligence (taking prisoners!?), scouting, even reconnaissance in force (scouts try hard not to engage the enemy, recon may involve engagement). And an unwillingness to fight unless there's no alternative, combined with a willingness to flee when things go badly. In summary, you're setting up a straw man and then criticizing me for advocating what I did not advocate. I am definitely not of a "coddle the players" mentality, though I know many players now *expect* to be coddled and looked after, not only in RPGs but in a great many video game genres. They automatically blame the GM (or the game) if they fail. (And often expect the game to be "all about ME".) Anyone beginning a campaign nowadays who wants to avoid coddling players would be wise to describe the adventuring group as military based, in a war of sorts, before anything gets started. EthanSental, I have no idea who shidaku is, no past history that I know of. Saelorn, quite true. Yes, 3e arranged combats that certainly weren't fair fights, but had the potential to harm if the players screwed up too much instead of only a little. The 5e method seems to be to make it really hard for any PC to get killed. Aenghus, yes, creativity is subjective. I think of it as finding unconventional ways to solve problems. Many people seem to think of it as a kind of "brain fever," a profusion of wild ideas, that somehow turns out well. [/QUOTE]
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