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RPGs And Eurostyle Games: When Opposites Attract
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<blockquote data-quote="lewpuls" data-source="post: 7750423" data-attributes="member: 30518"><p>I see lots of wargamers who play RPGs, but few Eurogamers who do. Likely part of any difference in observation is that I don't regard every non-wargame as a Euro (Catan is *not* a Euro, as many have observed), whereas others do. If you treat every non-wargame as a "Euro", you'll inevitably see many parallels with RPGs, or with any other kind of game. Similarly, if you look for exceptions in a category as broad as RPGs (which includes many so-called games that are much more storytelling aids than actual games), you'll find them.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Any generalization about "games" cannot take the outliers into account. That's the nature of generalizations. Put another way, if you broaden definitions sufficiently, then you can make a case for any category being much like any other category.</p><p></p><p></p><p>I don't care about inevitably-bogus nonsense that a very widely played game such as D&D is "archaic". What's typical is what's actually played a lot. Generalizations have to be based on what's typical, not on any possibly-mythical "leading edge". Your average gamer doesn't even know a leading edge (if any) exists. Innovation is highly overrated.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Aramis erak, thank you for the discussion of "major" and of models vs abstracts (which you'll notice is significantly longer than my original post could be).</p><p></p><p></p><p>CubicsRube: "To me a eurogame is primarily differentiated by the extreme limitation -or complete elimination - of luck, shfting the emphasis on strategy. " Surely not? Diplomacy is a Euro? No cards, no dice, no luck. Chess and Checkers are Euros? Stratego? There are lots of recently-released games with an emphasis on strategy and no luck to speak of (though Stratego does have limited information in a way that Chess does not). Shameless plug, my space wargame Crashing Suns on Worthington Publishing's pre-order system is another. The point here is, "Euro" has such different meaning to different people. Those who called Britannia a Euro may have been thinking about "no player elimination" and "point scoring," e.g., but that doesn't make it anything like a Euro.</p><p></p><p></p><p>billd91, it seems we disagree about everything: </p><p>In a highly interactive game you have to watch, and probably react to, every move of every opponent. Occasionally screwing someone does not make a game highly interactive, though it does take the game out of the "purely non-interactive" category. This is not merely "direct" vs "indirect".</p><p></p><p></p><p>I wasn't looking for *uniquely* Euro differences with RPGs, of course. That would make the whole exercise a nightmare.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Britannia as a Euro is nonsense, even though there are some commonly-Euro characteristics to it.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Of course, Your Mileage May Vary.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="lewpuls, post: 7750423, member: 30518"] I see lots of wargamers who play RPGs, but few Eurogamers who do. Likely part of any difference in observation is that I don't regard every non-wargame as a Euro (Catan is *not* a Euro, as many have observed), whereas others do. If you treat every non-wargame as a "Euro", you'll inevitably see many parallels with RPGs, or with any other kind of game. Similarly, if you look for exceptions in a category as broad as RPGs (which includes many so-called games that are much more storytelling aids than actual games), you'll find them. Any generalization about "games" cannot take the outliers into account. That's the nature of generalizations. Put another way, if you broaden definitions sufficiently, then you can make a case for any category being much like any other category. I don't care about inevitably-bogus nonsense that a very widely played game such as D&D is "archaic". What's typical is what's actually played a lot. Generalizations have to be based on what's typical, not on any possibly-mythical "leading edge". Your average gamer doesn't even know a leading edge (if any) exists. Innovation is highly overrated. Aramis erak, thank you for the discussion of "major" and of models vs abstracts (which you'll notice is significantly longer than my original post could be). CubicsRube: "To me a eurogame is primarily differentiated by the extreme limitation -or complete elimination - of luck, shfting the emphasis on strategy. " Surely not? Diplomacy is a Euro? No cards, no dice, no luck. Chess and Checkers are Euros? Stratego? There are lots of recently-released games with an emphasis on strategy and no luck to speak of (though Stratego does have limited information in a way that Chess does not). Shameless plug, my space wargame Crashing Suns on Worthington Publishing's pre-order system is another. The point here is, "Euro" has such different meaning to different people. Those who called Britannia a Euro may have been thinking about "no player elimination" and "point scoring," e.g., but that doesn't make it anything like a Euro. billd91, it seems we disagree about everything: In a highly interactive game you have to watch, and probably react to, every move of every opponent. Occasionally screwing someone does not make a game highly interactive, though it does take the game out of the "purely non-interactive" category. This is not merely "direct" vs "indirect". I wasn't looking for *uniquely* Euro differences with RPGs, of course. That would make the whole exercise a nightmare. Britannia as a Euro is nonsense, even though there are some commonly-Euro characteristics to it. Of course, Your Mileage May Vary. [/QUOTE]
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