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Rule-of-Three: 06/19/2012
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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 5949973" data-attributes="member: 42582"><p>Nice examples.</p><p></p><p>I've been wondering if someone would say this!</p><p></p><p>But I don't entirely agree. In pre-4e D&D, for example, suppose the wight is in a room with a pit, and a PC runs in fear. What is the chance that, in their terror, s/he falls into the pit? With a Deathlock Wight that is very easy to adjudicate. In earlier editions, it gets much closer to GM fiat, which (in this sort of context, in my view - fiating the stakes) tends to undermine player agency.</p><p></p><p>Yes, for the same reason about player agency.</p><p></p><p>More agreement from me!</p><p></p><p>I think we may be at cross purposes. In talking about the priority of mechanics to story, I'm not talking about the process of <em>design</em>. I'm talking about the process of <em>play</em>. I want mechanics that yield a story (of militaristic hobgoblins, shifty kobolds or whatever). When the only story difference between the two arises out of GM patter, but isn't evident in the actual mechanical experience of playing the game, then from my point of view there isn't really a significant story difference at all.</p><p></p><p>If I could design RPGs as good as 4e, or Burning Wheel, I would do so! As it is, though, I have to pay others to do it for me.</p><p></p><p>As for your befuddlement, read my description of the chained cambion encounter upthread. Or Dragoslav's example of the noble warlord vs the disgraced noble.</p><p></p><p>Or even think about the paladin's "Valiant Strike" power. This gives a bonus to hit based on the number of adjacent enemies. Which gives the player of the paladin a reason to have his/her paladin valiantly hurl him-/herself into the fray. The mechanic yields a certain story without the need for any sort of fluffy overlay, or any urgings from the designers for players to play their paladins as valiant warriors.</p><p></p><p>Our experiences here are completely the opposite. For integration of story elements and mechanics, 4e is one of the stronger games I know. (It's not on the same level as HeroWars/Quest, say, which uses freefrom descriptors as its key mechanical units in character building.) And if you're wondering what I've got in mind, it's the examples in this post and upthread.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 5949973, member: 42582"] Nice examples. I've been wondering if someone would say this! But I don't entirely agree. In pre-4e D&D, for example, suppose the wight is in a room with a pit, and a PC runs in fear. What is the chance that, in their terror, s/he falls into the pit? With a Deathlock Wight that is very easy to adjudicate. In earlier editions, it gets much closer to GM fiat, which (in this sort of context, in my view - fiating the stakes) tends to undermine player agency. Yes, for the same reason about player agency. More agreement from me! I think we may be at cross purposes. In talking about the priority of mechanics to story, I'm not talking about the process of [I]design[/I]. I'm talking about the process of [I]play[/I]. I want mechanics that yield a story (of militaristic hobgoblins, shifty kobolds or whatever). When the only story difference between the two arises out of GM patter, but isn't evident in the actual mechanical experience of playing the game, then from my point of view there isn't really a significant story difference at all. If I could design RPGs as good as 4e, or Burning Wheel, I would do so! As it is, though, I have to pay others to do it for me. As for your befuddlement, read my description of the chained cambion encounter upthread. Or Dragoslav's example of the noble warlord vs the disgraced noble. Or even think about the paladin's "Valiant Strike" power. This gives a bonus to hit based on the number of adjacent enemies. Which gives the player of the paladin a reason to have his/her paladin valiantly hurl him-/herself into the fray. The mechanic yields a certain story without the need for any sort of fluffy overlay, or any urgings from the designers for players to play their paladins as valiant warriors. Our experiences here are completely the opposite. For integration of story elements and mechanics, 4e is one of the stronger games I know. (It's not on the same level as HeroWars/Quest, say, which uses freefrom descriptors as its key mechanical units in character building.) And if you're wondering what I've got in mind, it's the examples in this post and upthread. [/QUOTE]
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