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Rule-of-Three: 07/10/2012
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<blockquote data-quote="I'm A Banana" data-source="post: 5966818" data-attributes="member: 2067"><p>It's a fair cop. That's part of why I think seeing the "adventuring day" as being challenge-neutral (ie: it can be a combat, or an exploration, or an interaction, or any combination of those) is useful. A dragon might be an entire "adventuring day" challenge, but that includes finding its lair, and maybe goading it into a vulnerable position, so that combat might be successful. </p><p></p><p>And now...</p><p>[sblock=Solvin' Problems]</p><p></p><p></p><p>Two approaches. My preferred method is to say, "Okay. Barbarians generally suck more at mysteries than they do at beating stuff up. Big surprise." They can maybe help chase down a fleeing suspect, or whatever, but if your entire adventuring day is a mystery, the barbarian is going to be at a disadvantage, and that's <em>working as intended</em>. If you're having a big intrigue campaign like ZEITGEIST, then barbarians are not the most ideal of PC's. </p><p></p><p>If you just use mysteries occasionally, then the barbarian might have to content himself with rolling mediocre Wisdom checks now, and the bard might have to content himself with rolling mediocre Dexterity checks in the big combat-laden dungeon coming up when the mystery is solved. Due to <a href="http://www.wizards.com/DnD/Article.aspx?x=dnd/4ll/20120604" target="_blank">Bounded Accuracy</a>, they can still meaningfully contribute, even if they're not using special awesome superpowers each time. Because most campaigns will use a variety of challenges, DMs really only have to worry about telegraphing their intent: if I say "I'm running an intigue-heavy game" and the PC's show up with a barbarian, a druid, a ranger, and an Athasian gladiator, maybe my e-mail got lost. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite2" alt=";)" title="Wink ;)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=";)" /> </p><p></p><p>If you're the type to get worked up over every character always contributing equally to every challenge, it's also not hard to give the barbarian a superpower that's useful in the Interaction pillar (like Intimidate) and one that's useful in the Exploration pillar (like, I dunno, Scent. Or Athletics), and call that fine, too. It's not really my preferred method, but it works fine. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>In 5e, there's ability checks. Everyone can make a Charisma check. And due to Bounded Accuracy, having a low Charisma doesn't necessarily mean you won't make the check -- the gap between untrained and trained is not as vast, and the DC's are within a given range. Everyone contributes, and if you have a low Charisma, you might not contribute as much to a Charisma check, but that's the price you pay for having low Charisma!</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p><a href="http://daedaluswing.wikidot.com/how-to-balance-vancian-casting" target="_blank">As was pointed out</a> (see the Level Up! section), you can only balance an increase of # spells/day if you overall increase everyone's output. This typically happens as the party gains levels, anyway, so that's to be expected. If you don't want, you can keep the # spells/day static and just increase spell level (presumably to keep pace with increasing capability from the rest of the party), but there's no reason to expect that the party's output remains static over the course of all the levels, since D&D usually doesn't work like that. And if it does (and maybe links doubling to things like tiers-as-treasure), that's balanced, too, and you wind up with a 2e/1e/etc.-style spells/day system that cannot be easily increased. </p><p></p><p>Things like spells that don't scale with caster level (but rather with spell slot level) are evidence that the team is thinking along similar lines.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Which is fine, too. The balance is not razor-thin and fragile. If the barbarian player is clever and the DM doesn't care to enforce a "You must roleplay your low Int!" rule of some sort, the barbarian's player might make a mechanically wonky proposition into one that doesn't much affect her personally, or even one that she excels at. A tactical player in a detailed combat would do the same (even if they were playing a one-handed bard in a wheelchair). A smart player in a puzzle-oriented dungeon would do the same (even if they were playing some idiot fighter doofus).</p><p></p><p>It's called "rewarding good play," and it's something D&D is mostly OK with. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I'm beginning to think you're not reading the links. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite2" alt=";)" title="Wink ;)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=";)" /></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>The interest in the balance is mechanical and mathematical, not fictional. You run into the usual problems of martial dailies when you try to give most martial characters access to a daily resource, but if you're cool with that, the balance is a honey badger: it don't care.</p><p>[/sblock]</p><p></p><p>tl;dr: Ability Checks, Bounded Accuracy, Read the Links, Good Play Is Good, The Sky Is Not Falling.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="I'm A Banana, post: 5966818, member: 2067"] It's a fair cop. That's part of why I think seeing the "adventuring day" as being challenge-neutral (ie: it can be a combat, or an exploration, or an interaction, or any combination of those) is useful. A dragon might be an entire "adventuring day" challenge, but that includes finding its lair, and maybe goading it into a vulnerable position, so that combat might be successful. And now... [sblock=Solvin' Problems] Two approaches. My preferred method is to say, "Okay. Barbarians generally suck more at mysteries than they do at beating stuff up. Big surprise." They can maybe help chase down a fleeing suspect, or whatever, but if your entire adventuring day is a mystery, the barbarian is going to be at a disadvantage, and that's [I]working as intended[/I]. If you're having a big intrigue campaign like ZEITGEIST, then barbarians are not the most ideal of PC's. If you just use mysteries occasionally, then the barbarian might have to content himself with rolling mediocre Wisdom checks now, and the bard might have to content himself with rolling mediocre Dexterity checks in the big combat-laden dungeon coming up when the mystery is solved. Due to [URL="http://www.wizards.com/DnD/Article.aspx?x=dnd/4ll/20120604"]Bounded Accuracy[/URL], they can still meaningfully contribute, even if they're not using special awesome superpowers each time. Because most campaigns will use a variety of challenges, DMs really only have to worry about telegraphing their intent: if I say "I'm running an intigue-heavy game" and the PC's show up with a barbarian, a druid, a ranger, and an Athasian gladiator, maybe my e-mail got lost. ;) If you're the type to get worked up over every character always contributing equally to every challenge, it's also not hard to give the barbarian a superpower that's useful in the Interaction pillar (like Intimidate) and one that's useful in the Exploration pillar (like, I dunno, Scent. Or Athletics), and call that fine, too. It's not really my preferred method, but it works fine. In 5e, there's ability checks. Everyone can make a Charisma check. And due to Bounded Accuracy, having a low Charisma doesn't necessarily mean you won't make the check -- the gap between untrained and trained is not as vast, and the DC's are within a given range. Everyone contributes, and if you have a low Charisma, you might not contribute as much to a Charisma check, but that's the price you pay for having low Charisma! [URL="http://daedaluswing.wikidot.com/how-to-balance-vancian-casting"]As was pointed out[/URL] (see the Level Up! section), you can only balance an increase of # spells/day if you overall increase everyone's output. This typically happens as the party gains levels, anyway, so that's to be expected. If you don't want, you can keep the # spells/day static and just increase spell level (presumably to keep pace with increasing capability from the rest of the party), but there's no reason to expect that the party's output remains static over the course of all the levels, since D&D usually doesn't work like that. And if it does (and maybe links doubling to things like tiers-as-treasure), that's balanced, too, and you wind up with a 2e/1e/etc.-style spells/day system that cannot be easily increased. Things like spells that don't scale with caster level (but rather with spell slot level) are evidence that the team is thinking along similar lines. Which is fine, too. The balance is not razor-thin and fragile. If the barbarian player is clever and the DM doesn't care to enforce a "You must roleplay your low Int!" rule of some sort, the barbarian's player might make a mechanically wonky proposition into one that doesn't much affect her personally, or even one that she excels at. A tactical player in a detailed combat would do the same (even if they were playing a one-handed bard in a wheelchair). A smart player in a puzzle-oriented dungeon would do the same (even if they were playing some idiot fighter doofus). It's called "rewarding good play," and it's something D&D is mostly OK with. :) I'm beginning to think you're not reading the links. ;) The interest in the balance is mechanical and mathematical, not fictional. You run into the usual problems of martial dailies when you try to give most martial characters access to a daily resource, but if you're cool with that, the balance is a honey badger: it don't care. [/sblock] tl;dr: Ability Checks, Bounded Accuracy, Read the Links, Good Play Is Good, The Sky Is Not Falling. [/QUOTE]
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