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<blockquote data-quote="smuckenfart" data-source="post: 8943675" data-attributes="member: 7040256"><p>I may be overthinking it as you say, or others may be downplaying the importance of words. I'll take a 50/50 on that. I'm sure Gygax and his team had editors and were much smarter than I, and that they were certain before publishing their works. We can only imagine the fierce debates they had before it ever made the clearinghouse.</p><p></p><p>We are strictly using 3.5e.</p><p></p><p>If you cut your finger, you can heal it with a simple spell, but if you sever your finger, it can be healed but not reattached without the higher level regeneration spell. The size is the same, only 1 inch (which is foundation of the slender dagger argument), but it does give credit to the basis that a <em>severed</em> thing is more serious than a cut/abrasion/slice, or whatever equivalent word is used to describe the material, enough that a simple spell isn't suffice.</p><p></p><p>I keep hearing this argument that they mention a <em>slender dagger</em>... well, does it not make sense that it is the reference point by which players may use to gauge the kind of break can be mended in a larger weapon, like a battle axe. If they used a short sword as an example, then the proportion of that crack in that sword would be beyond what the spell was intended because it's a larger blade. The break in that bastard sword may be no longer crack in a dagger.</p><p></p><p>Break a bone in your finger, it's small by the standard of measurement, less than one inch, yet there are various types of breaks that differ in degrees of seriousness, a hairline fracture being the least, and a clean break being the max. Breaks in objects also have different degrees of seriousness. The words used to describe a broken bone are identical to the ones you use with a broken dagger. A fracture, a clean break, etc. There isn't a break (single) greater than a clean break, unless you count shattered, which isn't a break. I am not being unreasonable, it's evidence based logic in how we use every day language to describe things. The severity of a type of damage is equivalent to the words used to describe it, of any sized weapon, clothing, wound, etc.</p><p></p><p>So, are we sure that what we are describing is regarded as "small", or are we just squeezing as much as we can out of it because to us a 1 inch dagger isn't a big deal, but if that 1 inch was your finger....suddenly we have a different perspective.</p><p></p><p>Cut your finger, you put a bandaid on it.</p><p>Gouge your finger, now you're a bit more concerned because it's more serious, no small thing. You go get stitches.</p><p>Sever your finger completely off, you go to the hospital to get surgery.</p><p></p><p>Mending is the bandaid.</p><p>Make whole is the surgery.</p><p></p><p>The zero HP ruling in the players handbook seems very clear cut to me, and I don't see how it supports any other argument without stretching your imagination or completely ignoring it. That to me is forcing a square peg into a round hole.</p><p></p><p>I don't know what publication this references, but I've found these: </p><p>*edit: I see that they're pathfinder publications, I realize now. They are also the only references that go into such detail.</p><p>[URL unfurl="true"]https://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment/damaging-objects/[/URL]</p><p></p><p>"A damaged object remains functional with the <a href="https://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/conditions#TOC-Broken" target="_blank">broken</a> condition until the item’s hit points are reduced to 0, at which point it is destroyed.</p><p>Damaged (but not destroyed) objects can be repaired with the <a href="https://www.d20pfsrd.com/skills/craft" target="_blank">Craft</a> skill and a number of spells. (eg. <em><a href="https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/m/make-whole" target="_blank">make whole</a></em> or <em><a href="https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/m/mending" target="_blank">mending</a></em>)"</p><p></p><p>And the broken condition is defined here:</p><p>[URL unfurl="true"]https://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/conditions#TOC-Broken[/URL]</p><p></p><p>"Items that have taken damage in excess of half their total <a href="https://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat#TOC-Hit-Points" target="_blank">hit points</a> gain the broken condition, meaning they are less effective at their designated task. The broken condition has the following effects, depending upon the item.</p><p></p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">If the item is a weapon, any attacks made with the item suffer a –2 penalty on attack and damage rolls. Such weapons only score a critical hit on a natural 20 and only deal ×2 damage on a confirmed critical hit.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">If the item is a suit of armor or a shield, the bonus it grants to <a href="https://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat#TOC-Armor-Class" target="_blank">AC</a> is halved, rounding down. Broken armor doubles its armor check penalty on skills.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">If the item is a tool needed for a skill, any skill check made with the item takes a –2 penalty.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">If the item is a <a href="https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wands" target="_blank">wand</a> or staff, it uses up twice as many charges when used.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">If the item does not fit into any of these categories, the broken condition has no effect on its use. Items with the broken condition, regardless of type, are worth 75% of their normal value. If the item is magical, it can only be repaired with a <a href="https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/m/mending" target="_blank"><em>mending</em></a> or <a href="https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/m/make-whole" target="_blank"><em>make whole</em></a> spell cast by a character with a <a href="https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic#TOC-Caster-Level" target="_blank">caster level</a> equal to or higher than the item’s. Items lose the broken condition if the spell restores the object to half its original <a href="https://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat#TOC-Hit-Points" target="_blank">hit points</a> or higher. Non-magical items can be repaired in a similar fashion, or through the <a href="https://www.d20pfsrd.com/skills/craft" target="_blank">Craft</a> skill used to create it. Generally speaking, this requires a DC 20 <a href="https://www.d20pfsrd.com/skills/craft" target="_blank">Craft</a> check and 1 hour of work per point of damage to be repaired. Most craftsmen charge one-tenth the item’s total cost to repair such damage (more if the item is badly damaged or ruined)."</li> </ul><p>This supports the sentence referring to "can mend a broken such and such provided but one break exists", where broken is the condition by which an item is severely damaged but not reduced to zero HP, at which point it is ruined/destroyed and requires the level 2 spell make whole to repair.</p><p></p><p>In the dnd wiki page, a "Broken Condition" was included described here:</p><p>[URL unfurl="true"]https://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Broken_(3.5e_Condition)[/URL]</p><p></p><h3>Broken (3.5e Condition)</h3><p><em>This condition is meant to replace the normal effect of <a href="https://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/SRD:Sunder" target="_blank">Sundering</a> or otherwise destroying items.</em></p><table style='width: 100%'><tr><td><p style="text-align: center"></p> </td></tr><tr><td><p style="text-align: center"></p> </td></tr></table><h3>Broken[<a href="https://dnd-wiki.org/w/index.php?title=Broken_(3.5e_Condition)&action=edit&section=1" target="_blank">edit</a>]</h3><p>This condition is not added to creature, rather it is added to items which hit points have been depleted. A broken item's magical qualities are suppressed until it is repaired. Broken armor double their Armor Check penalty and arcane spell failure, halves their AC Bonus and Max Dexterity bonus. Broken weapon deal minimum damage with each attack and count as improvised weapon.</p><p>A broken item can be repaired with spells such as <a href="https://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/SRD:Make_Whole" target="_blank"><em>make whole</em></a> or with a appropriated DC 20 <a href="https://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/SRD:Craft_Skill" target="_blank">Craft</a> check and 10 minute of work per hit point of the item. An item destroyed by <a href="https://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/SRD:Disintegrate" target="_blank"><em>disintegrate</em></a> or similar effect cannot be repaired but can be restored by a <a href="https://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/SRD:Wish" target="_blank"><em>wish</em></a> or <a href="https://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/SRD:Miracle" target="_blank"><em>miracle</em></a> spell.</p><p></p><p>It's homebrew, so I don't give it as much weight, but it also supports the basis that an object reduced to zero HP is effectively dead, and can be repaired with a Make Whole spell.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="smuckenfart, post: 8943675, member: 7040256"] I may be overthinking it as you say, or others may be downplaying the importance of words. I'll take a 50/50 on that. I'm sure Gygax and his team had editors and were much smarter than I, and that they were certain before publishing their works. We can only imagine the fierce debates they had before it ever made the clearinghouse. We are strictly using 3.5e. If you cut your finger, you can heal it with a simple spell, but if you sever your finger, it can be healed but not reattached without the higher level regeneration spell. The size is the same, only 1 inch (which is foundation of the slender dagger argument), but it does give credit to the basis that a [I]severed[/I] thing is more serious than a cut/abrasion/slice, or whatever equivalent word is used to describe the material, enough that a simple spell isn't suffice. I keep hearing this argument that they mention a [I]slender dagger[/I]... well, does it not make sense that it is the reference point by which players may use to gauge the kind of break can be mended in a larger weapon, like a battle axe. If they used a short sword as an example, then the proportion of that crack in that sword would be beyond what the spell was intended because it's a larger blade. The break in that bastard sword may be no longer crack in a dagger. Break a bone in your finger, it's small by the standard of measurement, less than one inch, yet there are various types of breaks that differ in degrees of seriousness, a hairline fracture being the least, and a clean break being the max. Breaks in objects also have different degrees of seriousness. The words used to describe a broken bone are identical to the ones you use with a broken dagger. A fracture, a clean break, etc. There isn't a break (single) greater than a clean break, unless you count shattered, which isn't a break. I am not being unreasonable, it's evidence based logic in how we use every day language to describe things. The severity of a type of damage is equivalent to the words used to describe it, of any sized weapon, clothing, wound, etc. So, are we sure that what we are describing is regarded as "small", or are we just squeezing as much as we can out of it because to us a 1 inch dagger isn't a big deal, but if that 1 inch was your finger....suddenly we have a different perspective. Cut your finger, you put a bandaid on it. Gouge your finger, now you're a bit more concerned because it's more serious, no small thing. You go get stitches. Sever your finger completely off, you go to the hospital to get surgery. Mending is the bandaid. Make whole is the surgery. The zero HP ruling in the players handbook seems very clear cut to me, and I don't see how it supports any other argument without stretching your imagination or completely ignoring it. That to me is forcing a square peg into a round hole. I don't know what publication this references, but I've found these: *edit: I see that they're pathfinder publications, I realize now. They are also the only references that go into such detail. [URL unfurl="true"]https://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment/damaging-objects/[/URL] "A damaged object remains functional with the [URL='https://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/conditions#TOC-Broken']broken[/URL] condition until the item’s hit points are reduced to 0, at which point it is destroyed. Damaged (but not destroyed) objects can be repaired with the [URL='https://www.d20pfsrd.com/skills/craft']Craft[/URL] skill and a number of spells. (eg. [I][URL='https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/m/make-whole']make whole[/URL][/I] or [I][URL='https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/m/mending']mending[/URL][/I])" And the broken condition is defined here: [URL unfurl="true"]https://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/conditions#TOC-Broken[/URL] "Items that have taken damage in excess of half their total [URL='https://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat#TOC-Hit-Points']hit points[/URL] gain the broken condition, meaning they are less effective at their designated task. The broken condition has the following effects, depending upon the item. [LIST] [*]If the item is a weapon, any attacks made with the item suffer a –2 penalty on attack and damage rolls. Such weapons only score a critical hit on a natural 20 and only deal ×2 damage on a confirmed critical hit. [*]If the item is a suit of armor or a shield, the bonus it grants to [URL='https://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat#TOC-Armor-Class']AC[/URL] is halved, rounding down. Broken armor doubles its armor check penalty on skills. [*]If the item is a tool needed for a skill, any skill check made with the item takes a –2 penalty. [*]If the item is a [URL='https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wands']wand[/URL] or staff, it uses up twice as many charges when used. [*]If the item does not fit into any of these categories, the broken condition has no effect on its use. Items with the broken condition, regardless of type, are worth 75% of their normal value. If the item is magical, it can only be repaired with a [URL='https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/m/mending'][I]mending[/I][/URL] or [URL='https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/m/make-whole'][I]make whole[/I][/URL] spell cast by a character with a [URL='https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic#TOC-Caster-Level']caster level[/URL] equal to or higher than the item’s. Items lose the broken condition if the spell restores the object to half its original [URL='https://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat#TOC-Hit-Points']hit points[/URL] or higher. Non-magical items can be repaired in a similar fashion, or through the [URL='https://www.d20pfsrd.com/skills/craft']Craft[/URL] skill used to create it. Generally speaking, this requires a DC 20 [URL='https://www.d20pfsrd.com/skills/craft']Craft[/URL] check and 1 hour of work per point of damage to be repaired. Most craftsmen charge one-tenth the item’s total cost to repair such damage (more if the item is badly damaged or ruined)." [/LIST] This supports the sentence referring to "can mend a broken such and such provided but one break exists", where broken is the condition by which an item is severely damaged but not reduced to zero HP, at which point it is ruined/destroyed and requires the level 2 spell make whole to repair. In the dnd wiki page, a "Broken Condition" was included described here: [URL unfurl="true"]https://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Broken_(3.5e_Condition)[/URL] [HEADING=2]Broken (3.5e Condition)[/HEADING] [I]This condition is meant to replace the normal effect of [URL='https://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/SRD:Sunder']Sundering[/URL] or otherwise destroying items.[/I] [TABLE] [TR] [TD][CENTER][/CENTER][/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD][CENTER][/CENTER][/TD] [/TR] [/TABLE] [HEADING=2]Broken[[URL='https://dnd-wiki.org/w/index.php?title=Broken_(3.5e_Condition)&action=edit§ion=1']edit[/URL]][/HEADING] This condition is not added to creature, rather it is added to items which hit points have been depleted. A broken item's magical qualities are suppressed until it is repaired. Broken armor double their Armor Check penalty and arcane spell failure, halves their AC Bonus and Max Dexterity bonus. Broken weapon deal minimum damage with each attack and count as improvised weapon. A broken item can be repaired with spells such as [URL='https://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/SRD:Make_Whole'][I]make whole[/I][/URL] or with a appropriated DC 20 [URL='https://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/SRD:Craft_Skill']Craft[/URL] check and 10 minute of work per hit point of the item. An item destroyed by [URL='https://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/SRD:Disintegrate'][I]disintegrate[/I][/URL] or similar effect cannot be repaired but can be restored by a [URL='https://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/SRD:Wish'][I]wish[/I][/URL] or [URL='https://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/SRD:Miracle'][I]miracle[/I][/URL] spell. It's homebrew, so I don't give it as much weight, but it also supports the basis that an object reduced to zero HP is effectively dead, and can be repaired with a Make Whole spell. [/QUOTE]
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