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<blockquote data-quote="Rystil Arden" data-source="post: 2080611" data-attributes="member: 29014"><p>Hmm...I agree with your comparison to the bugbear, and that's why I think your conclusion there is correct (remove a few things). Your comparison to the fighter is, I hope, a joke comparison, since its really misleading to, for example, say that d10 HD are worth 3 feats over d8 (Toughness is one of the worst feats in the game; Nobody would ever choose it and not regret it later, so 3 Toughnesses is not equivalent to three feats) so I would consider this HP disparity remediable with Improved Toughness, so more like one feat. Hmmm....also, humans are *not* less potent overall than elves. Dwarves maybe, but elves' Con penalty is devastating, and I always play human for the extra bonus feat. Free bonus feats that can be anything are worth a *lot* more than the pseudofeats that you describe above that you are forced to take, like the 3 Toughnesses for the extra HP. Stat raises aside, I would rather have the human bonus feat without the skill points than all the other elf abilities combined (because I get to choose anything, rather than being forced to take certain abilities). The Strength and Dex boosts for the Orrukarn are not only excellent abilities, they also make up for one of the missing BAB automatically. The proficiency section is the most deceptive of all, since one level in fighter will yield all of those at once. Thus, I will make a comparison of Orrukarn/Ftr2 vs Ftr5. I will make free feats that you get to take worth 1.5x as much as the forced pseudofeats that you must take from race/class abilities, unless the pseudofeat is racial (and thus restricted to characters of one particular race) and comboable to get somewhere that nobody else without an equivalent racial ability can go </p><p> </p><p>2 Humanoid Hit Dice and +1 LA with 2 Fighter levels, versus 5 Fighter levels to start with: assuming 10 Con average 8.5 HP more for the pure Fighter, equal to Improved Toughness and Toughness, so -2 feats. 2 less BAB, equivalent to 4-6 Weapon Focus / Greater Weapon Focus feats for most Fighters (as most use 2-3 different weapons, i.e. flail, bow, polearm), treat as -5. 1 fewer bonus feat, treat as -1.5. Less flexibility/power outside of warrior classes, due to missing out on 3 levels of class abilities/feats/skill points, treat as 0 feats short for this particular comparison, since we know he's a fighter. Verdict: 8.5 feats short of a 5rd-level Fighter's power and versatility.</p><p> </p><p>Racial bonuses: Compared to human, human gets a bonus feat and extra Skill Point per level, worth 2.5 feats, plus the negligible favoured class (many DMs ignore it, and it also rarely comes up unless you disallow prestige classes). Orrukarn have the feat for 1.5, plus Potent Mind (which is worth 3 feats because if you allow Practised Spellcaster, and its really a good idea to allow it as it makes multiclassing out of caster less painful, the abilities are comboable with Spell Penetration to go to even greater heights, plus comboable with Iron Will (since IW and SP are unnamed bonuses), and now that Spell Focus only gives +1 in 3.5, getting a double dose of IW is basically enough to make even a Fighter have better Will saves than a wizard with equivalent Wisdom until level 15). Guarded Vision is worth 2.5 feats (1.5 feats for the variety of effects it protects against and the stackability, plus another feats because it stacks with Potent Mind against a good number of its spells, making the bonus an incredible +4 [+6 with Iron Will], which could well leave a non-class-leveled Orrukarn with 6+Wis bonus against many Will effects). +1 natural armour is a feat (and better than any core armour increase feat too), and the stat ups are worth about three each, so the Orrukarn have an advantage of 20-2.5 = 17.5. </p><p> </p><p>So 17.5 racial - 8.5 fighter = 9</p><p> </p><p>The Orrukarn are way out of line from my analysis, but if the natural armour and one of the stat bonuses are removed, that would leave</p><p> </p><p>12.5 racial - 8.5 fighter = 4</p><p> </p><p>And I'm willing to concede that LA is so terrible for any character that leaving a race with a +4 advantage over the fighter in exchange for the LA seems fair.</p><p> </p><p>Edit: Oh and the humanoid levels give a Reflex saving throw bonus that the Fighter levels don't.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Rystil Arden, post: 2080611, member: 29014"] Hmm...I agree with your comparison to the bugbear, and that's why I think your conclusion there is correct (remove a few things). Your comparison to the fighter is, I hope, a joke comparison, since its really misleading to, for example, say that d10 HD are worth 3 feats over d8 (Toughness is one of the worst feats in the game; Nobody would ever choose it and not regret it later, so 3 Toughnesses is not equivalent to three feats) so I would consider this HP disparity remediable with Improved Toughness, so more like one feat. Hmmm....also, humans are *not* less potent overall than elves. Dwarves maybe, but elves' Con penalty is devastating, and I always play human for the extra bonus feat. Free bonus feats that can be anything are worth a *lot* more than the pseudofeats that you describe above that you are forced to take, like the 3 Toughnesses for the extra HP. Stat raises aside, I would rather have the human bonus feat without the skill points than all the other elf abilities combined (because I get to choose anything, rather than being forced to take certain abilities). The Strength and Dex boosts for the Orrukarn are not only excellent abilities, they also make up for one of the missing BAB automatically. The proficiency section is the most deceptive of all, since one level in fighter will yield all of those at once. Thus, I will make a comparison of Orrukarn/Ftr2 vs Ftr5. I will make free feats that you get to take worth 1.5x as much as the forced pseudofeats that you must take from race/class abilities, unless the pseudofeat is racial (and thus restricted to characters of one particular race) and comboable to get somewhere that nobody else without an equivalent racial ability can go 2 Humanoid Hit Dice and +1 LA with 2 Fighter levels, versus 5 Fighter levels to start with: assuming 10 Con average 8.5 HP more for the pure Fighter, equal to Improved Toughness and Toughness, so -2 feats. 2 less BAB, equivalent to 4-6 Weapon Focus / Greater Weapon Focus feats for most Fighters (as most use 2-3 different weapons, i.e. flail, bow, polearm), treat as -5. 1 fewer bonus feat, treat as -1.5. Less flexibility/power outside of warrior classes, due to missing out on 3 levels of class abilities/feats/skill points, treat as 0 feats short for this particular comparison, since we know he's a fighter. Verdict: 8.5 feats short of a 5rd-level Fighter's power and versatility. Racial bonuses: Compared to human, human gets a bonus feat and extra Skill Point per level, worth 2.5 feats, plus the negligible favoured class (many DMs ignore it, and it also rarely comes up unless you disallow prestige classes). Orrukarn have the feat for 1.5, plus Potent Mind (which is worth 3 feats because if you allow Practised Spellcaster, and its really a good idea to allow it as it makes multiclassing out of caster less painful, the abilities are comboable with Spell Penetration to go to even greater heights, plus comboable with Iron Will (since IW and SP are unnamed bonuses), and now that Spell Focus only gives +1 in 3.5, getting a double dose of IW is basically enough to make even a Fighter have better Will saves than a wizard with equivalent Wisdom until level 15). Guarded Vision is worth 2.5 feats (1.5 feats for the variety of effects it protects against and the stackability, plus another feats because it stacks with Potent Mind against a good number of its spells, making the bonus an incredible +4 [+6 with Iron Will], which could well leave a non-class-leveled Orrukarn with 6+Wis bonus against many Will effects). +1 natural armour is a feat (and better than any core armour increase feat too), and the stat ups are worth about three each, so the Orrukarn have an advantage of 20-2.5 = 17.5. So 17.5 racial - 8.5 fighter = 9 The Orrukarn are way out of line from my analysis, but if the natural armour and one of the stat bonuses are removed, that would leave 12.5 racial - 8.5 fighter = 4 And I'm willing to concede that LA is so terrible for any character that leaving a race with a +4 advantage over the fighter in exchange for the LA seems fair. Edit: Oh and the humanoid levels give a Reflex saving throw bonus that the Fighter levels don't. [/QUOTE]
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