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Rules, Rulings and Second Order Design: D&D and AD&D Examined
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<blockquote data-quote="Pedantic" data-source="post: 9040263" data-attributes="member: 6690965"><p>Oh, I could not disagree more here. It is very difficult to discuss design in TTRPGs precisely because there is this divide to begin with. We get trapped in generalities very quickly because we can't settle on the necessary commonplaces for discussion. Routinely, a rule is held up as synecdoche for the concept of rules, "feats are bad, because now you can't take an action with the specific ability allowing you to take it" vs. "the Brachiation feat is bad, because that ability should be better handled via the skill system."</p><p></p><p>It is very hard to push any discussion of design forward, when you're struggling against "why is there design?" as a question every time. Bad design goes unexamined, either because the rule zero tradition sees no problem pushing, as you put it, first order mistakes out to seek second order solutions, or because some subset of users don't support a particular design goal (or, often, that a game should have design goals).</p><p></p><p>I often wish there was some way to subdivide the hobby into more discrete, specific hobbies as a result. I'm jealous of what board games have done over the last 20 years, when comparatively what we've seen in TTRPGs is deeply stagnant from a design perspective, precisely because a chunk of the audience is hostile to the very idea. It's an exclusionary impulse I think is probably unworthy, but it can be deeply frustrating.</p><p></p><p>This is precisely that reduction I was talking about. Not having a rule is equally expensive, the costs are just born elsewhere: either as a second order design work, which is done live and under different, potentially less flexible and/or rigorous conditions than the first kind, or on the player side, as they make decisions without clarity. Every rule is balancing factors on both sides of that equation, but it's not a perfectly balanced scenario before you start introducing them.</p><p></p><p>We certainly agree here that there isn't a solid narrative of progressive improvement in TTRPG design, I just think the focus on second-order design considerations really limits the potential there ever will be. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite7" alt=":p" title="Stick out tongue :p" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":p" /></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Pedantic, post: 9040263, member: 6690965"] Oh, I could not disagree more here. It is very difficult to discuss design in TTRPGs precisely because there is this divide to begin with. We get trapped in generalities very quickly because we can't settle on the necessary commonplaces for discussion. Routinely, a rule is held up as synecdoche for the concept of rules, "feats are bad, because now you can't take an action with the specific ability allowing you to take it" vs. "the Brachiation feat is bad, because that ability should be better handled via the skill system." It is very hard to push any discussion of design forward, when you're struggling against "why is there design?" as a question every time. Bad design goes unexamined, either because the rule zero tradition sees no problem pushing, as you put it, first order mistakes out to seek second order solutions, or because some subset of users don't support a particular design goal (or, often, that a game should have design goals). I often wish there was some way to subdivide the hobby into more discrete, specific hobbies as a result. I'm jealous of what board games have done over the last 20 years, when comparatively what we've seen in TTRPGs is deeply stagnant from a design perspective, precisely because a chunk of the audience is hostile to the very idea. It's an exclusionary impulse I think is probably unworthy, but it can be deeply frustrating. This is precisely that reduction I was talking about. Not having a rule is equally expensive, the costs are just born elsewhere: either as a second order design work, which is done live and under different, potentially less flexible and/or rigorous conditions than the first kind, or on the player side, as they make decisions without clarity. Every rule is balancing factors on both sides of that equation, but it's not a perfectly balanced scenario before you start introducing them. We certainly agree here that there isn't a solid narrative of progressive improvement in TTRPG design, I just think the focus on second-order design considerations really limits the potential there ever will be. :p [/QUOTE]
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