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<blockquote data-quote="EzekielRaiden" data-source="post: 9041075" data-attributes="member: 6790260"><p>It would be <em>really really awesome</em> if both you and [USER=6801845]@Oofta[/USER] would stop (a) putting words in my mouth and (b) gleefully attacking a CR 0 Straw Golem rather than the things I actually said.</p><p></p><p>So, to reiterate:</p><p></p><p><strong>Fun doesn't tell you what you need to do differently to make the game work. It only tells you whether it worked.</strong> This applies whether you're a designer or a GM or whatever else.</p><p></p><p><strong>That doesn't mean fun is irrelevant. It's incredibly important! But you cannot <em>design</em> for it.</strong> You can only design, and then test to see if it works to <em>produce</em> fun. If it does, great (though it's always nice to know why, you don't technically <em>need</em> to.) If it doesn't, you need to find out <em>why</em> it doesn't work, in at least SOME way, so you have even the faintest clue what to do about it. Hence the "<a href="https://www.enworld.org/threads/constructive-criticism.697913/" target="_blank">Constructive Criticism</a>" thread, where a dozen different GMs have explicitly said some variation of, "I wish my players would actually give me feedback instead of just saying 'it was fun' and nothing more."</p><p></p><p>"Fun" as a design goal is like "wealth" as a retirement goal or "flavor" as a cooking goal or "action" as a directing goal or "drama" as a writing goal or "efficiency" in an engineering goal, etc., etc., <em>ad nauseam</em>. That is, <em>yes absolutely</em> these things are what we want to have happen. No one, <em>literally not anyone</em>, is questioning that--it would be foolish to do so. Instead, what I am saying is, <strong>"fun" doesn't get you from point A to point B.</strong> It doesn't tell you what is wrong; only <em>that</em> it is wrong. It's like a plumber whose only standard is whether the water pressure and drainage are good (things that, yes, you really do want!) But if <em>all you ever do</em> is ask, "Is the water pressure good?"/"does it drain?" you'll be unable to diagnose the actual issue, and you'll be constantly running wild goose chases trying to fix it.</p><p></p><p>Again, I am ABSOLUTELY NOT saying the <em>incredibly obviously stupid</em> thing, "Design games that are less fun!" I am saying that <strong>if you simply make "fun" your ONLY goal, you'll usually get worse results.</strong> By sweeping away all the other things, you'll end up making games that are less fun than if you'd cared about those other things. Because--as is the case in an enormous swathe of human endeavor--it turns out that the path you take to get to that destination can actually matter <em>just as much</em>--not more, but not less either--as the destination itself. Method matters.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="EzekielRaiden, post: 9041075, member: 6790260"] It would be [I]really really awesome[/I] if both you and [USER=6801845]@Oofta[/USER] would stop (a) putting words in my mouth and (b) gleefully attacking a CR 0 Straw Golem rather than the things I actually said. So, to reiterate: [B]Fun doesn't tell you what you need to do differently to make the game work. It only tells you whether it worked.[/B] This applies whether you're a designer or a GM or whatever else. [B]That doesn't mean fun is irrelevant. It's incredibly important! But you cannot [I]design[/I] for it.[/B] You can only design, and then test to see if it works to [I]produce[/I] fun. If it does, great (though it's always nice to know why, you don't technically [I]need[/I] to.) If it doesn't, you need to find out [I]why[/I] it doesn't work, in at least SOME way, so you have even the faintest clue what to do about it. Hence the "[URL='https://www.enworld.org/threads/constructive-criticism.697913/']Constructive Criticism[/URL]" thread, where a dozen different GMs have explicitly said some variation of, "I wish my players would actually give me feedback instead of just saying 'it was fun' and nothing more." "Fun" as a design goal is like "wealth" as a retirement goal or "flavor" as a cooking goal or "action" as a directing goal or "drama" as a writing goal or "efficiency" in an engineering goal, etc., etc., [I]ad nauseam[/I]. That is, [I]yes absolutely[/I] these things are what we want to have happen. No one, [I]literally not anyone[/I], is questioning that--it would be foolish to do so. Instead, what I am saying is, [B]"fun" doesn't get you from point A to point B.[/B] It doesn't tell you what is wrong; only [I]that[/I] it is wrong. It's like a plumber whose only standard is whether the water pressure and drainage are good (things that, yes, you really do want!) But if [I]all you ever do[/I] is ask, "Is the water pressure good?"/"does it drain?" you'll be unable to diagnose the actual issue, and you'll be constantly running wild goose chases trying to fix it. Again, I am ABSOLUTELY NOT saying the [I]incredibly obviously stupid[/I] thing, "Design games that are less fun!" I am saying that [B]if you simply make "fun" your ONLY goal, you'll usually get worse results.[/B] By sweeping away all the other things, you'll end up making games that are less fun than if you'd cared about those other things. Because--as is the case in an enormous swathe of human endeavor--it turns out that the path you take to get to that destination can actually matter [I]just as much[/I]--not more, but not less either--as the destination itself. Method matters. [/QUOTE]
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