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Rules, Rulings and Second Order Design: D&D and AD&D Examined
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<blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 9043420" data-attributes="member: 87792"><p>Not mentioned by Jake Jaquet anywhere you quote: "Fun". Because he did not mention "fun" in anything he wrote in that conversation.</p><p>Instead he mentions the two different concepts of "playability and enjoyability" and makes a deliberate distinction between the two. A distinction between the two that you erase.</p><p></p><p>No these are not synonyms for each other. Something can be enjoyable without being fun; I consider a nice, long, relaxing soak in a hot tub to be enjoyable - but fun isn't a word I would associate with it. And in the RPG space I don't consider e.g. Montsegur 1244 to be fun; it's dark, intense, and cathartic. It's a tragedy not a comedy. But it's highly enjoyable. (And this is entirely ignoring the idea of having fun <em>because</em> the rules aren't playable).</p><p></p><p>So when you imply that playability and enjoyability mean the same thing as fun you are actively misrepresenting the points that were being made. I would say that Jaquet was right when he said that playability and enjoyability were important - but "fun" is neither more nor less than one single one of the possible types of enjoyability.</p><p></p><p>[Citation needed] Because I've been on these boards for years and have had many conversations with [USER=6790260]@EzekielRaiden[/USER] and never seen any such thing. And I think I'd have noticed it. </p><p></p><p>What on the other hand I have noticed from them is that they understandably thinks that "fun" has so many meanings to so many different people that talking about "fun" on its own has less nuance and usefulness than giving something a star rating.</p><p></p><p>This is of course a massive overexaggeration. You can't force someone to like something - but I have found a number of things I've liked when I have understood what they are trying to do that I didn't understand before. Socrates, talking out of his hat, claimed that the unexamined life was not worth living - but the examined life should be more worth living.</p><p></p><p>And yes, you can cherry pick how conversations go wrong.</p><p></p><p>Rarer, but something that can be useful is "What about it did you find fun?"</p><p></p><p>Let's reverse this. "If people actively cared about sharing their love of the game they'd be going in with a good-faith effort to communicate which parts of the game they found fun." Because nothing is perfect and nothing is worthless. And different people are different.</p><p></p><p>And if would-be designers actively cared about designing good games and communicating their designs they would never say something as bland and inane as claiming to be designing for fun. Instead they'd be communicating what <em>type</em> of fun they were trying to create and <em>who the target audience was</em>. And how they were doing that.</p><p></p><p>And no, peoples' <em>enjoyment</em> isn't lesser for lack of examination. But their <em>ability to usefully contribute to the conversation</em> is. "I found it fun" is a thumbs up, nothing more.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Neonchameleon, post: 9043420, member: 87792"] Not mentioned by Jake Jaquet anywhere you quote: "Fun". Because he did not mention "fun" in anything he wrote in that conversation. Instead he mentions the two different concepts of "playability and enjoyability" and makes a deliberate distinction between the two. A distinction between the two that you erase. No these are not synonyms for each other. Something can be enjoyable without being fun; I consider a nice, long, relaxing soak in a hot tub to be enjoyable - but fun isn't a word I would associate with it. And in the RPG space I don't consider e.g. Montsegur 1244 to be fun; it's dark, intense, and cathartic. It's a tragedy not a comedy. But it's highly enjoyable. (And this is entirely ignoring the idea of having fun [I]because[/I] the rules aren't playable). So when you imply that playability and enjoyability mean the same thing as fun you are actively misrepresenting the points that were being made. I would say that Jaquet was right when he said that playability and enjoyability were important - but "fun" is neither more nor less than one single one of the possible types of enjoyability. [Citation needed] Because I've been on these boards for years and have had many conversations with [USER=6790260]@EzekielRaiden[/USER] and never seen any such thing. And I think I'd have noticed it. What on the other hand I have noticed from them is that they understandably thinks that "fun" has so many meanings to so many different people that talking about "fun" on its own has less nuance and usefulness than giving something a star rating. This is of course a massive overexaggeration. You can't force someone to like something - but I have found a number of things I've liked when I have understood what they are trying to do that I didn't understand before. Socrates, talking out of his hat, claimed that the unexamined life was not worth living - but the examined life should be more worth living.[I][/I] And yes, you can cherry pick how conversations go wrong. Rarer, but something that can be useful is "What about it did you find fun?" Let's reverse this. "If people actively cared about sharing their love of the game they'd be going in with a good-faith effort to communicate which parts of the game they found fun." Because nothing is perfect and nothing is worthless. And different people are different. And if would-be designers actively cared about designing good games and communicating their designs they would never say something as bland and inane as claiming to be designing for fun. Instead they'd be communicating what [I]type[/I] of fun they were trying to create and [I]who the target audience was[/I]. And how they were doing that. And no, peoples' [I]enjoyment[/I] isn't lesser for lack of examination. But their [I]ability to usefully contribute to the conversation[/I] is. "I found it fun" is a thumbs up, nothing more. [/QUOTE]
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