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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 6041304" data-attributes="member: 42582"><p>I think I've caused confusion with my post.</p><p></p><p>I agree with your analysis of the traditional model, and the game I GM is very traditional: GM authority over backstory, over scene-framing and over action declaration for NPCs; player authority over declaration of PC actions. (There are some areas on the margins where I might depart from the tradition, depending exactly what one thinks that is: eg player authority over action declaration for certain NPCs, such as cohorts; and player authority over some aspects of background such as the nature of their PCs' homelands or secret societies.)</p><p></p><p>When talking about the role of the rules in establishing authority to stipulate the content of the fiction, I'm thinking partially about scene-framing, but even more about action resolution. In all its editions, D&D combat has followed the same model at its core: GM frames the scene (including assigning relevant mechanical values to various antagonists); GM and players declare actions for NPCs/monsters and PCs respectivelty; action resolution mechanics tell us the outcome of these action declarations (and also, via initiative rules, establish the sequence in which they are processed); where the outcome needs further adjudication, the GM provides that adjudication within the parameters established by the action resolution mechanics.</p><p></p><p>At the core of this core is a very simple rule: if the outcome of the action resolution mechanics is such that an NPC or monster's hit point pool is reduced to 0 (in all editions but 3E) or below 0 (in 3E), then the GM is precluded from declaring actions for that antagonist. And this is the rule that, ultimately, players rely on to have their PCs achieve things via combat: a game-mechnically determined guarantee of finality to the resolution of conflict.</p><p></p><p>When we turn to the other domains, there are two notable features: first, with the exception of the skill challenge mechanic in 4e, there has never been a mechanic that players can leverage to achieve finality in conflict resolution: in exploration, for example, the GM has always been free to narrate that the weather changes, or that the door swings shut; and in social conflict, the GM has always been free to narrate that the NPC/monster changes its mind. (This comes up often in threads about why players don't have their PCs take prisoners very often.)</p><p></p><p>Second, as a general rule there is no mechanical obstacle or even disincentive to escalating conflicts to combat whenever possible, <em>other than the fear of losing that combat</em>. (Strong alignment or obstacle rules can in some contexts be an exception to this, but notoriously they bring along their own problems.)</p><p></p><p>The combination of these two features is that players who want to be confident about the fates of their avatars typically have little reason not to bypass or escalate exploratory and social situations into combat ones. Because combat is the "pillar" in which the mechanics impose clear limits on the GM's power to stipulate the content of the fiction, and clearly confer on them a corresponding power (mediated via their action declarations for their PCs, and subsequent action resolution). This is not a state of affaris that is unique to D&D as an RPG, but I think is somewhat distinctive about it, particularly in the degree to which it obtains.</p><p></p><p>We are in agreement. And I hope what I've said above does a better job of making my reasons clear: it's because I don't want combat to be the only domain of conflict in which the GM is not overwhelmingly responsible of determining the content of the fiction. As you say, that is work for the GM. And, as you say, it makes it harder for players to reinforce their PC archetypes. But also, and for me probably most important, it tends to make the players spectators in a story told by the GM, at least until matters escalate to violence. And that's not how I want my RPGing to be.</p><p></p><p>I dont agree with that. The interaction rules were quite limited - they governed morale in combat, the related notion of the loyalty of servitors, and reaction rols which are clearly framed on the assumption that the meeting is between two armed and potentially violently hostile bands.</p><p></p><p>Furthermore, the interaction rules in B/X or AD&D don't have any dynamics, and in that respect are quite unlike the combat rules in those systems. The reaction and loyalty rules are really closer to scene-framing mechanics - determining the nature of the challenge that the PCs face (a hostile orc tribe, or a defecting henchman) - than action resolution mechanics. The morale rules are a bit different in this respect, but the points of potential player interaction are still very modest: there is no clear mechanical provision, for example, for a player triggering a morale check by having his/her PC do something other than kill the opposition in combat.</p><p></p><p>The exploration rules are also quite limited, in my view. For example, if a player wants to have his PC climb a tall tree in order to get a good view of the surrounding land, there is no clear guidance on what the difficulty should be, and within what sorts of parameters the consequences of success and failure should be narrated. Contrast this with, for example, Burning Wheel, which makes it very easy to resolve that sort of action: a low obstacle Climbing check serving as a linked test to facilitate a subsequent Orienteering (or similar) test, with a Light or Midi wound serving as the consequence for failing the Climbing check.</p><p></p><p>I'm not familiar enough with 2nd ed AD&D or 3E to contradict your claim that, in spite of their limitations, the exploration and interaction rules in classic D&D weren't more elaborate. But I know both classic D&D and 4e pretty well, and there is nothing in classic D&D that compares to 4e's skill challenge mechanics.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 6041304, member: 42582"] I think I've caused confusion with my post. I agree with your analysis of the traditional model, and the game I GM is very traditional: GM authority over backstory, over scene-framing and over action declaration for NPCs; player authority over declaration of PC actions. (There are some areas on the margins where I might depart from the tradition, depending exactly what one thinks that is: eg player authority over action declaration for certain NPCs, such as cohorts; and player authority over some aspects of background such as the nature of their PCs' homelands or secret societies.) When talking about the role of the rules in establishing authority to stipulate the content of the fiction, I'm thinking partially about scene-framing, but even more about action resolution. In all its editions, D&D combat has followed the same model at its core: GM frames the scene (including assigning relevant mechanical values to various antagonists); GM and players declare actions for NPCs/monsters and PCs respectivelty; action resolution mechanics tell us the outcome of these action declarations (and also, via initiative rules, establish the sequence in which they are processed); where the outcome needs further adjudication, the GM provides that adjudication within the parameters established by the action resolution mechanics. At the core of this core is a very simple rule: if the outcome of the action resolution mechanics is such that an NPC or monster's hit point pool is reduced to 0 (in all editions but 3E) or below 0 (in 3E), then the GM is precluded from declaring actions for that antagonist. And this is the rule that, ultimately, players rely on to have their PCs achieve things via combat: a game-mechnically determined guarantee of finality to the resolution of conflict. When we turn to the other domains, there are two notable features: first, with the exception of the skill challenge mechanic in 4e, there has never been a mechanic that players can leverage to achieve finality in conflict resolution: in exploration, for example, the GM has always been free to narrate that the weather changes, or that the door swings shut; and in social conflict, the GM has always been free to narrate that the NPC/monster changes its mind. (This comes up often in threads about why players don't have their PCs take prisoners very often.) Second, as a general rule there is no mechanical obstacle or even disincentive to escalating conflicts to combat whenever possible, [I]other than the fear of losing that combat[/I]. (Strong alignment or obstacle rules can in some contexts be an exception to this, but notoriously they bring along their own problems.) The combination of these two features is that players who want to be confident about the fates of their avatars typically have little reason not to bypass or escalate exploratory and social situations into combat ones. Because combat is the "pillar" in which the mechanics impose clear limits on the GM's power to stipulate the content of the fiction, and clearly confer on them a corresponding power (mediated via their action declarations for their PCs, and subsequent action resolution). This is not a state of affaris that is unique to D&D as an RPG, but I think is somewhat distinctive about it, particularly in the degree to which it obtains. We are in agreement. And I hope what I've said above does a better job of making my reasons clear: it's because I don't want combat to be the only domain of conflict in which the GM is not overwhelmingly responsible of determining the content of the fiction. As you say, that is work for the GM. And, as you say, it makes it harder for players to reinforce their PC archetypes. But also, and for me probably most important, it tends to make the players spectators in a story told by the GM, at least until matters escalate to violence. And that's not how I want my RPGing to be. I dont agree with that. The interaction rules were quite limited - they governed morale in combat, the related notion of the loyalty of servitors, and reaction rols which are clearly framed on the assumption that the meeting is between two armed and potentially violently hostile bands. Furthermore, the interaction rules in B/X or AD&D don't have any dynamics, and in that respect are quite unlike the combat rules in those systems. The reaction and loyalty rules are really closer to scene-framing mechanics - determining the nature of the challenge that the PCs face (a hostile orc tribe, or a defecting henchman) - than action resolution mechanics. The morale rules are a bit different in this respect, but the points of potential player interaction are still very modest: there is no clear mechanical provision, for example, for a player triggering a morale check by having his/her PC do something other than kill the opposition in combat. The exploration rules are also quite limited, in my view. For example, if a player wants to have his PC climb a tall tree in order to get a good view of the surrounding land, there is no clear guidance on what the difficulty should be, and within what sorts of parameters the consequences of success and failure should be narrated. Contrast this with, for example, Burning Wheel, which makes it very easy to resolve that sort of action: a low obstacle Climbing check serving as a linked test to facilitate a subsequent Orienteering (or similar) test, with a Light or Midi wound serving as the consequence for failing the Climbing check. I'm not familiar enough with 2nd ed AD&D or 3E to contradict your claim that, in spite of their limitations, the exploration and interaction rules in classic D&D weren't more elaborate. But I know both classic D&D and 4e pretty well, and there is nothing in classic D&D that compares to 4e's skill challenge mechanics. [/QUOTE]
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