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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 6041786" data-attributes="member: 42582"><p>There are different things going on here, and I have different views about them.</p><p></p><p>Flexibility in adjudicating the consequences of physical defeat is part of the core rules of 4e, and doesn't seem to me to be fudging at all. A key part of the GM's role, at least in my preferred approach to RPGing, is to adjudicate consequences within the parameters of the mechanics and the prior fiction, but those consequences should also be sensitive to what is going to come next.</p><p></p><p><a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/6038597-post70.html" target="_blank">Here's an example</a> from my own 4e game of how I handled a "TPK".</p><p></p><p>Developing NPCs on the fly I also see as a central element of GM adjudication - it's part of the introduction of complications into the unfolding situation. I'm a big fan of <a href="http://indie-rpgs.com/archive/index.php?topic=1361.5" target="_blank">this comment by Paul Czege</a> on the technique:</p><p></p><p style="margin-left: 20px"><p style="margin-left: 20px">There are two points to a scene - Point A, where the PCs start the scene, and Point B, where they end up. Most games let the players control some aspect of Point A, and then railroad the PCs to point B. Good narrativism will reverse that by letting the GM create a compelling Point A, and let the players dictate what Point B is (ie, there is no Point B prior to the scene beginning).</p></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">I think it very effectively exposes, as Ron points out above, that although roleplaying games typically feature scene transition, by "scene framing" we're talking about a subset of scene transition that features a different kind of intentionality. My personal inclination is to call the traditional method "scene extrapolation," because the details of the Point A of scenes initiated using the method are typically arrived at primarily by considering the physics of the game world, what has happened prior to the scene, and the unrevealed actions and aspirations of characters that only the GM knows about.</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">"Scene framing" is a very different mental process for me. Tim asked if scene transitions were delicate. They aren't. Delicacy is a trait I'd attach to "scene extrapolation," the idea being to make scene initiation seem an outgrowth of prior events, objective, unintentional, non-threatening, but not to the way I've come to frame scenes in games I've run recently. </p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">. . .</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">By god, when I'm framing scenes, and I'm in the zone, I'm turning a freakin' firehose of adversity and situation on the character. It is not an objective outgrowth of prior events. It's intentional as all get out. </p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">. . .</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">I frame the character into the middle of conflicts I think will push and pull in ways that are interesting to me and to the player. I keep NPC personalities somewhat unfixed in my mind, allowing me to retroactively justify their behaviors in support of this. And like Scott's "Point A to Point B" model says, the outcome of the scene is not preconceived.</p><p></p><p>On the other hand, I have problems with the advice on wandering monsters and on fudging attack and damage rolls. What is the point of wandering monster mechanics if the GM doesn't apply them? What is the point of combat resolution mechanics if the GM doesn't apply them?</p><p></p><p>My own view (and here I think I echo [MENTION=6696971]Manbearcat[/MENTION] above) is that if the game's mechanics won't deliver the desired play experience, then the game's mechanics are flawed.</p><p></p><p>This is why I think a good RPG needs robust encounter-building/scene framing guidelines, that reliably produce the expected result; and needs to support "fail forward"-style resolution, as in my "TPK" example.</p><p></p><p>I hope it's reasonably clear why, in light of that view, I see such a big difference between the various examples of authorised "fudging" that you give from the AD&D DMGs. Some are sensible advice on adjudication. But others are just invitations to use GM force to override bad resolution rules.</p><p></p><p>I'm sure that's true. There seem to be plenty of people who loved the 2nd ed AD&D style, for example, but I'm not one of them!</p><p></p><p>At the risk of being immodest, I'll point to you to <a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-pathfinder/326200-why-i-like-skill-challenges-noncombat-resolution-mechanic.html" target="_blank">a thread of mine</a> that has some discussions and links to examples.</p><p></p><p>And just to compound the immodesty, here's a link to <a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/tabletop-gaming/301282-actual-play-examples-balance-between-fiction-mechanics.html" target="_blank">another therad of mine</a> where the relationship between scene framing, resolution, "genre logic" etc got debated from a variety of perspectives.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 6041786, member: 42582"] There are different things going on here, and I have different views about them. Flexibility in adjudicating the consequences of physical defeat is part of the core rules of 4e, and doesn't seem to me to be fudging at all. A key part of the GM's role, at least in my preferred approach to RPGing, is to adjudicate consequences within the parameters of the mechanics and the prior fiction, but those consequences should also be sensitive to what is going to come next. [url=http://www.enworld.org/forum/6038597-post70.html]Here's an example[/url] from my own 4e game of how I handled a "TPK". Developing NPCs on the fly I also see as a central element of GM adjudication - it's part of the introduction of complications into the unfolding situation. I'm a big fan of [url=http://indie-rpgs.com/archive/index.php?topic=1361.5]this comment by Paul Czege[/url] on the technique: [indent][indent]There are two points to a scene - Point A, where the PCs start the scene, and Point B, where they end up. Most games let the players control some aspect of Point A, and then railroad the PCs to point B. Good narrativism will reverse that by letting the GM create a compelling Point A, and let the players dictate what Point B is (ie, there is no Point B prior to the scene beginning).[/indent] I think it very effectively exposes, as Ron points out above, that although roleplaying games typically feature scene transition, by "scene framing" we're talking about a subset of scene transition that features a different kind of intentionality. My personal inclination is to call the traditional method "scene extrapolation," because the details of the Point A of scenes initiated using the method are typically arrived at primarily by considering the physics of the game world, what has happened prior to the scene, and the unrevealed actions and aspirations of characters that only the GM knows about. "Scene framing" is a very different mental process for me. Tim asked if scene transitions were delicate. They aren't. Delicacy is a trait I'd attach to "scene extrapolation," the idea being to make scene initiation seem an outgrowth of prior events, objective, unintentional, non-threatening, but not to the way I've come to frame scenes in games I've run recently. . . . By god, when I'm framing scenes, and I'm in the zone, I'm turning a freakin' firehose of adversity and situation on the character. It is not an objective outgrowth of prior events. It's intentional as all get out. . . . I frame the character into the middle of conflicts I think will push and pull in ways that are interesting to me and to the player. I keep NPC personalities somewhat unfixed in my mind, allowing me to retroactively justify their behaviors in support of this. And like Scott's "Point A to Point B" model says, the outcome of the scene is not preconceived.[/indent] On the other hand, I have problems with the advice on wandering monsters and on fudging attack and damage rolls. What is the point of wandering monster mechanics if the GM doesn't apply them? What is the point of combat resolution mechanics if the GM doesn't apply them? My own view (and here I think I echo [MENTION=6696971]Manbearcat[/MENTION] above) is that if the game's mechanics won't deliver the desired play experience, then the game's mechanics are flawed. This is why I think a good RPG needs robust encounter-building/scene framing guidelines, that reliably produce the expected result; and needs to support "fail forward"-style resolution, as in my "TPK" example. I hope it's reasonably clear why, in light of that view, I see such a big difference between the various examples of authorised "fudging" that you give from the AD&D DMGs. Some are sensible advice on adjudication. But others are just invitations to use GM force to override bad resolution rules. I'm sure that's true. There seem to be plenty of people who loved the 2nd ed AD&D style, for example, but I'm not one of them! At the risk of being immodest, I'll point to you to [url=http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-pathfinder/326200-why-i-like-skill-challenges-noncombat-resolution-mechanic.html]a thread of mine[/url] that has some discussions and links to examples. And just to compound the immodesty, here's a link to [url=http://www.enworld.org/forum/tabletop-gaming/301282-actual-play-examples-balance-between-fiction-mechanics.html]another therad of mine[/url] where the relationship between scene framing, resolution, "genre logic" etc got debated from a variety of perspectives. [/QUOTE]
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