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<blockquote data-quote="Hussar" data-source="post: 6042844" data-attributes="member: 22779"><p>There also comes the problem with when you narrate actions.</p><p></p><p>In combat, you can only narrate, or at least complete a narration, after the results are known. Kyle the SwordGuy's player announces he's attacking the orc, but, until all the dice are rolled, no one at the table knows how that's going to turn out. IOW, Kyle initiates the process, but the narration always comes after the fact.</p><p></p><p>In the other two pillars, it's usually reversed. We make our speech to the king and then roll the dice (presuming dice are used) or the DM reacts to our speech (in a more freeform system). The narration typically comes first. And that's how people have done it for a long time. I think it can be very jarring to try to reverse the order. This is why you have such strident resistance to things like Diplomacy checks.</p><p></p><p>After all, if you make your speech first, then roll diplomacy, it's fairly easy to have a large disconnect between the two. Either Bob Stumbletongue rolls a nat 20 and his hemming and hawing player speech is turned into Shakespeare, or Bob Silvertongue's gift for the gab turns horribly wrong. And that disconnect is hard to work around.</p><p></p><p>I'm not sure what the right solution to the problem is, but, I think it needs to be recognized that many players want to narrate non-combat stuff first and then roll the dice to determine degree of success, rather than roll the dice first and then narrate it after. After all, take a Search for Traps check. The player describes himself as being careful, rolls badly and trips the trap as he was just not careful enough. But, going the other way, maybe the DM describes the character as not being careful enough and the player might object that he wouldn't actually do what the DM is describing. If left up to the player though, it can be hard to try to describe your own failure.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Hussar, post: 6042844, member: 22779"] There also comes the problem with when you narrate actions. In combat, you can only narrate, or at least complete a narration, after the results are known. Kyle the SwordGuy's player announces he's attacking the orc, but, until all the dice are rolled, no one at the table knows how that's going to turn out. IOW, Kyle initiates the process, but the narration always comes after the fact. In the other two pillars, it's usually reversed. We make our speech to the king and then roll the dice (presuming dice are used) or the DM reacts to our speech (in a more freeform system). The narration typically comes first. And that's how people have done it for a long time. I think it can be very jarring to try to reverse the order. This is why you have such strident resistance to things like Diplomacy checks. After all, if you make your speech first, then roll diplomacy, it's fairly easy to have a large disconnect between the two. Either Bob Stumbletongue rolls a nat 20 and his hemming and hawing player speech is turned into Shakespeare, or Bob Silvertongue's gift for the gab turns horribly wrong. And that disconnect is hard to work around. I'm not sure what the right solution to the problem is, but, I think it needs to be recognized that many players want to narrate non-combat stuff first and then roll the dice to determine degree of success, rather than roll the dice first and then narrate it after. After all, take a Search for Traps check. The player describes himself as being careful, rolls badly and trips the trap as he was just not careful enough. But, going the other way, maybe the DM describes the character as not being careful enough and the player might object that he wouldn't actually do what the DM is describing. If left up to the player though, it can be hard to try to describe your own failure. [/QUOTE]
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