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<blockquote data-quote="Aegeri" data-source="post: 5232171" data-attributes="member: 78116"><p>So I noticed a few comments that some of you were seeing this effect at Paragon tier and as I alluded to in the opening post, that's about when it becomes a major problem. I've run four games into paragon and I can say that the main difference is usually based on the controller. If you have a good stun and similar spamming controller, life can be very hard for monsters compared to if you don't have a controller who can.</p><p></p><p>Increasing damage since MM3 seems to be a simple solution though, my most recent campaign to enter paragon has done so pretty much as MM3 came out. So I've been playing with the increased damage since it started and that's made a really big difference. Not to mention that in many ways I've "improved" older monsters by giving them some new powers or abilities (extending aboleths reach to reach 3 as an example).</p><p></p><p>Some solutions:</p><p></p><p><strong>1. Terrain</strong></p><p></p><p>By paragon tier PCs should be investigating lost temples and other things. These places should be the home of the creatures that live there and they should have big advantages. Plenty of complete darkness for lurkers, narrow caverns or side corridors can be used to block area/burst attacks. The place you fight can make a huge difference to how any encounter will go and this is never more important than at paragon/epic.</p><p></p><p><strong>2. Creatures</strong></p><p></p><p>By around level 13 or so solos start to become ineffective due to the fact the PCs now have plenty of daze, stun and similar powers. Not to mention general disables like attack penalties and defense penalties. Here you should consider a few things to improve solos:</p><p></p><p>A) Houserules like Slyflourish posted or my own. Either allow them to save things that wouldn't normally get saves, like dazes and stuns util the end of their turn, or use powers like Hydra fury, or just let them take damage to remove effects. Whatever you choose to do, make sure your PCs know about it and that its consistent. The goal isn't to make stun and daze powers useless, just appropriately reduce their power so they cannot trivialize a solo fight. At the same time, you don't want to make a controller feel like he has no point, so outright immunities are something I would avoid. Denying immediate reactions, free actions and similar are still just as useful (even if they won't lose their whole turn).</p><p></p><p>B) Outside of solos, consider what monsters you are putting into an encounter and how they function together. For example, in my epic game I have made an archammer runespiral daemon. This creature takes a defensive role as well as an offensive role. It has a passive aura 5 that reduces burst, close and area attacks against itself and creatures within the aura by a -5 penalty and they suffer no negative effects on a miss. This aura allows creatures to be somewhat together and be protected from area of effect powers, while allowing the PCs to "Snipe" out the runespiral daemon as ranged and melee attacks suffer no penalty.</p><p></p><p>This creature provides a clear target and doesn't entirely shut down AoE stun and dazes. Instead it encourages the PCs to adapt their tactics and find a new solution to the creature - such as having to hit it away from its allies with a power like cratorfall, then unleash their burst attacks. The important thing is when you make such things they shouldn't be used in excess. One or two is a unique and fun challenge for your players. Every encounter being filled with tons of them feels like spiting their power choices deliberately.</p><p></p><p>Another example from my paragon campaign are the aboleths I made. Aboleth Overseers have a powerful aura 5 that renders all slime servants and thralls within it utterly immune to the dominate and stun conditions. This is because the Aboleth Overseer is basically mentally controlling them and ripping that control away from the beast, which is more than a simple mental connection is almost impossible. This makes the aboleth an important target and keeping his servants away from him becomes a key part of the strategy (the overseer if you're wondering is immune to charm, but he can still be stunned!).</p><p></p><p>However here is something important that you ALSO need to remember as a DM: Your PCs aren't heroic tier anymore. Paragon and Epic PCs should be allowed to feel utterly awesome. That's right, sometimes you should make an encounter that is 100% vulnerable to all of their tricks! Sometimes the monsters are grouped up, or the PCs clearly get the drop on them or any number of other circumstances. Every so often it's good to have an encounter where the PCs beat the snot out of creatures and make themselves feel pretty powerful. Especially if you are making some pretty tricky and difficult encounters to challenge them, the odd "simple" encounter helps to reinforce how powerful their characters are.</p><p></p><p>Not everything has to be life or death, in fact it's undesirable to have every encounter push the PCs especially if you don't want "short" adventuring days. One of the consequences of the increased damage and especially the huge nerf to Cleric surgeless healing in my current epic tier game, has been that PCs are actually running lower on healing surges. Before I believe my PCs could take 5 or even 6 encounters in one day. Now they are managing to get through 4 and the front line characters (Battle Cleric, Fighter and Barbarian) have been absolutely <em>mauled</em>.</p><p></p><p><strong>3. Traps and Hazards</strong></p><p></p><p>This is a slightly different concept to just terrain, which is more physical things like how the map is laid down, if there is a pit somewhere or if there are large curtains obscuring sight. Traps and hazards - those things you add to an encounter that are worth experience - should benefit the monsters more than the PCs. Traps should be prepared by the creatures (think Kobolds) and be at their usage and knowledge. Traps are a good way of mixing up a combat, because they usually can't be physically destroyed by the PCs and require skills to avoid or disarm. Hazards are similar in traps in this respect. An example from one of my games is strange tree like mushrooms that drop spores, which make you trip balls when you accidentally hit them with burst and area attacks (while not affecting the local myconids who rather enjoy it in fact). This can break up a combat and make it more tactically interesting, without having the vulnerabilities that adding another creature does.</p><p></p><p>An example from my epic game is actually the use of the recent cacodaemon from Demonomicon. Ter-Soth (See the OP) was killed by the PCs, but such a vile and detestable daemon doesn't just fade away into nothing. Aside from blowing a massive burning hole straight through the ship the PCs are on, his spirit is actually still lingering around near where he died. When the PCs fight one of their main antagonists of the campaign, she will "awaken" his spirit as a vile <a href="http://www.wizards.com/dnd/Article.aspx?x=dnd/4ex/20100614" target="_blank">cacodaemon</a>! </p><p></p><p>This gives the PCs an immediate dilemma - the cacodaemon cannot be affected by powers very much and they need to stuff his soul into an item. At the same time their antagonist is throwing spells aroud like mad and pressing down on them. This actually has an important plot related point as well - as the Wild Mage sorcerer has an item with the bound soul of a wizard who was binding daemons. By binding Ter-Soth into that item and taking the time to do that, the PCs can get a strong magical item and an ability to bind the antagonist reducing her effectiveness in the combat! At the same time, ignoring Ter-Soth means the PCs are under threat of being dominated and potentially even dominated for the whole encounter!</p><p></p><p>This encounter uses a monster that functions as a trap (I quite like the cacodaemon) and combines it with a pretty powerful solo. At the same time the hole in the center of the deck can reduce their mobility a little or provide a place for the antagonist to hover over if she needs to. Additionally two heralds of colorless flame provide enough of a destraction that AoE powers are still useful (as there are 3 enemies they can effect), without really being exceptionally useful to them in this encounter like the previous ones.</p><p></p><p>It does mean that the controller and sorcerer have to make a tough decision. Do they try to shut down the antagonist and the two heralds of colorless flame? Or do they spend actions removing the threat of the cacodaemon before it can cause considerable disruption to their plans? This sort of dilemma is exactly the thing you should be aiming for at epic. Large burst powers are very effective against team monster, but when you need to decide between affecting a trap and affecting team monster with your actions it's no longer a simple decision.</p><p></p><p>It's worth noting that the cacodaemon was written with the old dominate condition in mind. There is no longer any daze condition while dominated, but the intent of the power is clear anyway despite that.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Aegeri, post: 5232171, member: 78116"] So I noticed a few comments that some of you were seeing this effect at Paragon tier and as I alluded to in the opening post, that's about when it becomes a major problem. I've run four games into paragon and I can say that the main difference is usually based on the controller. If you have a good stun and similar spamming controller, life can be very hard for monsters compared to if you don't have a controller who can. Increasing damage since MM3 seems to be a simple solution though, my most recent campaign to enter paragon has done so pretty much as MM3 came out. So I've been playing with the increased damage since it started and that's made a really big difference. Not to mention that in many ways I've "improved" older monsters by giving them some new powers or abilities (extending aboleths reach to reach 3 as an example). Some solutions: [B]1. Terrain[/B] By paragon tier PCs should be investigating lost temples and other things. These places should be the home of the creatures that live there and they should have big advantages. Plenty of complete darkness for lurkers, narrow caverns or side corridors can be used to block area/burst attacks. The place you fight can make a huge difference to how any encounter will go and this is never more important than at paragon/epic. [B]2. Creatures[/B] By around level 13 or so solos start to become ineffective due to the fact the PCs now have plenty of daze, stun and similar powers. Not to mention general disables like attack penalties and defense penalties. Here you should consider a few things to improve solos: A) Houserules like Slyflourish posted or my own. Either allow them to save things that wouldn't normally get saves, like dazes and stuns util the end of their turn, or use powers like Hydra fury, or just let them take damage to remove effects. Whatever you choose to do, make sure your PCs know about it and that its consistent. The goal isn't to make stun and daze powers useless, just appropriately reduce their power so they cannot trivialize a solo fight. At the same time, you don't want to make a controller feel like he has no point, so outright immunities are something I would avoid. Denying immediate reactions, free actions and similar are still just as useful (even if they won't lose their whole turn). B) Outside of solos, consider what monsters you are putting into an encounter and how they function together. For example, in my epic game I have made an archammer runespiral daemon. This creature takes a defensive role as well as an offensive role. It has a passive aura 5 that reduces burst, close and area attacks against itself and creatures within the aura by a -5 penalty and they suffer no negative effects on a miss. This aura allows creatures to be somewhat together and be protected from area of effect powers, while allowing the PCs to "Snipe" out the runespiral daemon as ranged and melee attacks suffer no penalty. This creature provides a clear target and doesn't entirely shut down AoE stun and dazes. Instead it encourages the PCs to adapt their tactics and find a new solution to the creature - such as having to hit it away from its allies with a power like cratorfall, then unleash their burst attacks. The important thing is when you make such things they shouldn't be used in excess. One or two is a unique and fun challenge for your players. Every encounter being filled with tons of them feels like spiting their power choices deliberately. Another example from my paragon campaign are the aboleths I made. Aboleth Overseers have a powerful aura 5 that renders all slime servants and thralls within it utterly immune to the dominate and stun conditions. This is because the Aboleth Overseer is basically mentally controlling them and ripping that control away from the beast, which is more than a simple mental connection is almost impossible. This makes the aboleth an important target and keeping his servants away from him becomes a key part of the strategy (the overseer if you're wondering is immune to charm, but he can still be stunned!). However here is something important that you ALSO need to remember as a DM: Your PCs aren't heroic tier anymore. Paragon and Epic PCs should be allowed to feel utterly awesome. That's right, sometimes you should make an encounter that is 100% vulnerable to all of their tricks! Sometimes the monsters are grouped up, or the PCs clearly get the drop on them or any number of other circumstances. Every so often it's good to have an encounter where the PCs beat the snot out of creatures and make themselves feel pretty powerful. Especially if you are making some pretty tricky and difficult encounters to challenge them, the odd "simple" encounter helps to reinforce how powerful their characters are. Not everything has to be life or death, in fact it's undesirable to have every encounter push the PCs especially if you don't want "short" adventuring days. One of the consequences of the increased damage and especially the huge nerf to Cleric surgeless healing in my current epic tier game, has been that PCs are actually running lower on healing surges. Before I believe my PCs could take 5 or even 6 encounters in one day. Now they are managing to get through 4 and the front line characters (Battle Cleric, Fighter and Barbarian) have been absolutely [I]mauled[/I]. [B]3. Traps and Hazards[/B] This is a slightly different concept to just terrain, which is more physical things like how the map is laid down, if there is a pit somewhere or if there are large curtains obscuring sight. Traps and hazards - those things you add to an encounter that are worth experience - should benefit the monsters more than the PCs. Traps should be prepared by the creatures (think Kobolds) and be at their usage and knowledge. Traps are a good way of mixing up a combat, because they usually can't be physically destroyed by the PCs and require skills to avoid or disarm. Hazards are similar in traps in this respect. An example from one of my games is strange tree like mushrooms that drop spores, which make you trip balls when you accidentally hit them with burst and area attacks (while not affecting the local myconids who rather enjoy it in fact). This can break up a combat and make it more tactically interesting, without having the vulnerabilities that adding another creature does. An example from my epic game is actually the use of the recent cacodaemon from Demonomicon. Ter-Soth (See the OP) was killed by the PCs, but such a vile and detestable daemon doesn't just fade away into nothing. Aside from blowing a massive burning hole straight through the ship the PCs are on, his spirit is actually still lingering around near where he died. When the PCs fight one of their main antagonists of the campaign, she will "awaken" his spirit as a vile [URL="http://www.wizards.com/dnd/Article.aspx?x=dnd/4ex/20100614"]cacodaemon[/URL]! This gives the PCs an immediate dilemma - the cacodaemon cannot be affected by powers very much and they need to stuff his soul into an item. At the same time their antagonist is throwing spells aroud like mad and pressing down on them. This actually has an important plot related point as well - as the Wild Mage sorcerer has an item with the bound soul of a wizard who was binding daemons. By binding Ter-Soth into that item and taking the time to do that, the PCs can get a strong magical item and an ability to bind the antagonist reducing her effectiveness in the combat! At the same time, ignoring Ter-Soth means the PCs are under threat of being dominated and potentially even dominated for the whole encounter! This encounter uses a monster that functions as a trap (I quite like the cacodaemon) and combines it with a pretty powerful solo. At the same time the hole in the center of the deck can reduce their mobility a little or provide a place for the antagonist to hover over if she needs to. Additionally two heralds of colorless flame provide enough of a destraction that AoE powers are still useful (as there are 3 enemies they can effect), without really being exceptionally useful to them in this encounter like the previous ones. It does mean that the controller and sorcerer have to make a tough decision. Do they try to shut down the antagonist and the two heralds of colorless flame? Or do they spend actions removing the threat of the cacodaemon before it can cause considerable disruption to their plans? This sort of dilemma is exactly the thing you should be aiming for at epic. Large burst powers are very effective against team monster, but when you need to decide between affecting a trap and affecting team monster with your actions it's no longer a simple decision. It's worth noting that the cacodaemon was written with the old dominate condition in mind. There is no longer any daze condition while dominated, but the intent of the power is clear anyway despite that. [/QUOTE]
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