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Ryan Dancey - D&D in a Death Spiral
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<blockquote data-quote="BryonD" data-source="post: 4748109" data-attributes="member: 957"><p>I think the kernel of the animosity is in this statement.</p><p>There are certainly people who like both games, but the back and forth is between people who like one and dislike the other.</p><p></p><p>Peter likes 3E and points out something that supports his game of choice.</p><p>Peter is more likely to notice things positive of 3E and is less likely to question them.</p><p></p><p>Paul likes 4E and points out something that supports his game of choice.</p><p>Peter is more likely to notice things positive of 4E and is less likely to question them.</p><p></p><p>Peter reads Paul's post.</p><p>Paul reads Peter's post.</p><p></p><p>Peter gets mad at Paul and complains that at least he isn't trying to destroy 4E the way Paul is trying to destroy 3E.</p><p></p><p>Paul gets mad at Peter and complains that at least he isn't trying to destroy 3E the way Paul is trying to destroy 4E.</p><p></p><p>Actual conversation never starts in the first place.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Clearly, I'm on the 3E side. I think the straight jacket comment up thread is in the ballpark of a good summary of how 4E services what I want from a game. But I still want 4E to be as much of a success as it can. The better 4E does the more money and energy there will be for 5E and my hopes that it will swing back to what I want. Or even without 5E that someone else will make the next "better mousetrap" for me.</p><p></p><p>But, it just so happens that everything is not one dimensional. It is possible for me to want 4E to do well, and at the same time have a biased perception of its performance, and at the same time also set aside that bias and make reasonably objective assessments of what is actually happening.</p><p></p><p>Now, maybe Dancey is biased here. But he has put together a detailed argument. If that argument is totally bogus and based purely on biased and agenda-laden fiction, then it will be a terribly fragile argument. Deconstruct it. Tear it apart and show it for its absurdity. </p><p></p><p>Saying "Of course this guy would say that" and not addressing the argument itself, seems to be a weak attempt to change the subject.</p><p></p><p>A week or so ago Mearls threw out a very short post that basically said 4E is doing great. (don't recall word for word) A lot of people replied more or less "There is a guy that would know. End of discussion". And a lot of people thought "of course a wotc guy would say that". Neither of those responses actually make the claim stronger or weaker.</p><p></p><p>But in this case at least there is a reasoning to speak to.</p><p></p><p>Personally, I think there can be some truth to all of the above. I still think 4E is new and hot. And I still think it has much less depth of buying market and a shorter ultimate lifespan. I have chuckled at the praise of PHB2 sales not because I question them, but because if that particular title isn't doing well just 9 months after the game came out, then things are bad indeed.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="BryonD, post: 4748109, member: 957"] I think the kernel of the animosity is in this statement. There are certainly people who like both games, but the back and forth is between people who like one and dislike the other. Peter likes 3E and points out something that supports his game of choice. Peter is more likely to notice things positive of 3E and is less likely to question them. Paul likes 4E and points out something that supports his game of choice. Peter is more likely to notice things positive of 4E and is less likely to question them. Peter reads Paul's post. Paul reads Peter's post. Peter gets mad at Paul and complains that at least he isn't trying to destroy 4E the way Paul is trying to destroy 3E. Paul gets mad at Peter and complains that at least he isn't trying to destroy 3E the way Paul is trying to destroy 4E. Actual conversation never starts in the first place. Clearly, I'm on the 3E side. I think the straight jacket comment up thread is in the ballpark of a good summary of how 4E services what I want from a game. But I still want 4E to be as much of a success as it can. The better 4E does the more money and energy there will be for 5E and my hopes that it will swing back to what I want. Or even without 5E that someone else will make the next "better mousetrap" for me. But, it just so happens that everything is not one dimensional. It is possible for me to want 4E to do well, and at the same time have a biased perception of its performance, and at the same time also set aside that bias and make reasonably objective assessments of what is actually happening. Now, maybe Dancey is biased here. But he has put together a detailed argument. If that argument is totally bogus and based purely on biased and agenda-laden fiction, then it will be a terribly fragile argument. Deconstruct it. Tear it apart and show it for its absurdity. Saying "Of course this guy would say that" and not addressing the argument itself, seems to be a weak attempt to change the subject. A week or so ago Mearls threw out a very short post that basically said 4E is doing great. (don't recall word for word) A lot of people replied more or less "There is a guy that would know. End of discussion". And a lot of people thought "of course a wotc guy would say that". Neither of those responses actually make the claim stronger or weaker. But in this case at least there is a reasoning to speak to. Personally, I think there can be some truth to all of the above. I still think 4E is new and hot. And I still think it has much less depth of buying market and a shorter ultimate lifespan. I have chuckled at the praise of PHB2 sales not because I question them, but because if that particular title isn't doing well just 9 months after the game came out, then things are bad indeed. [/QUOTE]
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