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<blockquote data-quote="jim pinto" data-source="post: 2813041" data-attributes="member: 17619"><p><strong>my tummy hurts</strong></p><p></p><p>First, thanks for taking the time out to post on here. Usually, these threads die or change into “anime-furries are better than manga-furries” arguments. At least your post was topical.</p><p></p><p>Secondly, seeing as how you couldn't avoid bringing up your hurt feelings, I've chosen to post my biting remarks on my personal blog.</p><p></p><p><a href="http://fluidsum.blogspot.com/2005/12/if-they-gave-oscars-for-making-waves.html" target="_blank">http://fluidsum.blogspot.com/2005/12/if-they-gave-oscars-for-making-waves.html</a></p><p></p><p>What I think of you doesn’t belong on enworld. These people have suffered enough.</p><p></p><p>Thirdly, I'm going to try to address everything you've said (in context), because that's how debates are done.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Your original post wasn’t about being a gamer. It was about how much money WoW made and how little YOU/THIS INDUSTRY made in the same year (or last 30 years combined… bad math aside). So, while you might be a gamer at heart, your theme promoted fear and your thread addressed how people need to get together and have fun in a social way (the mission statement of your organized play company if I’m not mistaken).</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Precisely everyone’s point on this thread. They will continue to play, with or without new product.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>As someone who made poverty wages for 9 years, I find that statement highly ignorant.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>You’re smart enough to know that only the people at top make a living off of gaming (and a handful of very talented artists). But with only a few exceptions, gaming is not a meritocracy. Game companies do not seek out talented people. They do not recruit the guy who just released Product X. Instead, guys in positions like you hire some kid for 2 cents a word and copy the last great idea. The gaming industry is awash in copies, not trendsetting games.</p><p></p><p>People fear original ideas. They fear risk. They want to market something like Eberron, rather than something new and exciting like … Collectible DNA (hey, that’s not a bad idea, actually). The last new idea was collectible cards and perhaps… minis. Even D&D 3rd is what D&D 2nd edition should have been.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Then why is it no longer commercially viable? Why did you have to save it from TSR 8 years ago? Why is there a glut of product no one wants? Why is the gap in the sales of the PHB and the second best supplement so wide? Why is doomsday talk the scourge of Enworld? Why did you start this thread?</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Well. I actually addressed this earlier. If gamers are stinky, WoW allows them to be stinky and not bother anyone. If they are bad GMs and PCs, WoW allows them to kill stuff and play in railroad stories without GM controlled options. If gamer can’t show up on time, don’t have a car, or lack the initiative to get out of their chairs, then WoW allows them to become heroes from the convenience of their bedrooms. If gamers lack social skills, they can shout their heads off in WoW, get booted and then go play Everquest.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I don’t know about you, but I’m going to game with DaveMage, Qwillon, Mouseferatu, and BlackRedBlue…</p><p></p><p><img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /></p><p></p><p>Have you not been following the barrage of notes about this across the internet and among the FLGS supporters with social skills? There’s a lot of people that enjoy the excitement of TRPGs more than CRPGs. Gamers are going to hunt each other down and pay the $20 a month meetup.com fee if necessary to find a group to play with.</p><p></p><p>Or use organized play.</p><p></p><p>…</p><p></p><p>The question I’ll ask to you is… why didn’t the D&D team plan for this before releasing the OGL license? You know, the license that doesn’t require a licensing fee? How short-sighted was this? How much more money did Hasbro make off D&D because someone really wanted to play the Red Dinosaur RPG, but need the PHB to do it? How much money did they lose because company X released the Red Dinosaur RPG before they could?</p><p></p><p>If you ask me, TRPGs were being lowered into the casket around 1999… but 3.0 gave them a shot of adrenaline and BAM; Frankenstein is alive once again. But if I wanted to know which two poisons killed it…I would look to 3.5 and that free open source document.</p><p></p><p>And since no one on this thread except you was involved in either of those decisions, why is it the worry of the game community to find some heart paddles to bring it back to life?</p><p></p><p>So. Here’s another question. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Also known in some circles as competition.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Then TRPGs are doomed! You’re rattling the same saber that historical gamers and war gamers have been rattling for 20 years. Game companies need to grow up and learn that a staff of 1,600 administrators and 2 writers is probably a bad design model for a niche hobby. And if they really want it to thrive, they need to target their product at the numbers geeks that thought Star Fleet Battles and Shadowrun involved simple math or target them at the LARP community that touts itself as socially refined in contrast.</p><p></p><p>[Huge generalizations, I know.]</p><p></p><p>The wargame community bounced back by making simpler games. When does the RPG community get a clue?</p><p></p><p>If someone of your professional caliber is worried about all this (and I don’t believe people in your position ever are), then why is there never a 10-year plan? Why was 3.5 released, effectively fracturing D&D players into three camps (3.0, 3.5, and never going to play either again, ever)? </p><p></p><p>As for the second half of that statement, all things become extinct. ALL. You need to worry about the end of clean air and water before you worry about the death of the TRPG, because those two things are coming in the next 10 years, not the next 30.</p><p></p><p>And if the end really is extremely f***ing nigh, then get used to the response gamers have been hearing for years: “Whatever the market will bear.”</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>We always come back to the banner I’ve been carrying for years… bad gamers drive people from the hobby. You can’t cure what people are (short of a plague), so you’d better start learning to adapt your product to every walk of beast out there.</p><p></p><p>WoW doesn’t care if wear the same clothes to every game sessions.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I see only three options:</p><p></p><p>* Someone comes up with a way to show that the TRPG experience has value and utility that can't be replaced in an MMORPG, and markets that feature effectively to 12-15 year olds, as well as the existing TRPG population, and allows the TRPG player network to exist safely in parallel with the MMORPG network.</p><p></p><p>* The TRPG field evolves into a new format with a new genre and targets a new group of players - a new niche market for some reason safe from predation by the fantasy MMORPG titans.</p><p></p><p>* MMORPGs do turn out to be a fad, and their business models collapse, leaving a residue of some unknown number of new "RPG" players seeking a way to continue to engage in their hobby even after the games that brought them to the concept have been shut off, and the TRPG player network co-opts them.</p><p></p><p>All I know for certain is that something has to change, and start changing fast, or the network for TRPGs risks hitting that critical threshold of "holes".</p></blockquote><p></p><p>Well. For those of us in Southern California, this happened 10 years ago. If you don’t meet people in college or your local convention, you don’t meet people to game with. So, either the desire to play is there or its not. How desperate are you to game? Will you roll up characters with the guy who plays NINJAS? Or the gamer who dents every chair you own? Or the one who argues about the rules at every session? What is your threshold?</p><p></p><p>After all, a thirsty man in the desert will s*ck off a camel.</p><p></p><p>So… is TRPG need or want?</p><p>[/QUOTE]</p>
[QUOTE="jim pinto, post: 2813041, member: 17619"] [b]my tummy hurts[/b] First, thanks for taking the time out to post on here. Usually, these threads die or change into “anime-furries are better than manga-furries” arguments. At least your post was topical. Secondly, seeing as how you couldn't avoid bringing up your hurt feelings, I've chosen to post my biting remarks on my personal blog. [url]http://fluidsum.blogspot.com/2005/12/if-they-gave-oscars-for-making-waves.html[/url] What I think of you doesn’t belong on enworld. These people have suffered enough. Thirdly, I'm going to try to address everything you've said (in context), because that's how debates are done. Your original post wasn’t about being a gamer. It was about how much money WoW made and how little YOU/THIS INDUSTRY made in the same year (or last 30 years combined… bad math aside). So, while you might be a gamer at heart, your theme promoted fear and your thread addressed how people need to get together and have fun in a social way (the mission statement of your organized play company if I’m not mistaken). Precisely everyone’s point on this thread. They will continue to play, with or without new product. As someone who made poverty wages for 9 years, I find that statement highly ignorant. You’re smart enough to know that only the people at top make a living off of gaming (and a handful of very talented artists). But with only a few exceptions, gaming is not a meritocracy. Game companies do not seek out talented people. They do not recruit the guy who just released Product X. Instead, guys in positions like you hire some kid for 2 cents a word and copy the last great idea. The gaming industry is awash in copies, not trendsetting games. People fear original ideas. They fear risk. They want to market something like Eberron, rather than something new and exciting like … Collectible DNA (hey, that’s not a bad idea, actually). The last new idea was collectible cards and perhaps… minis. Even D&D 3rd is what D&D 2nd edition should have been. Then why is it no longer commercially viable? Why did you have to save it from TSR 8 years ago? Why is there a glut of product no one wants? Why is the gap in the sales of the PHB and the second best supplement so wide? Why is doomsday talk the scourge of Enworld? Why did you start this thread? Well. I actually addressed this earlier. If gamers are stinky, WoW allows them to be stinky and not bother anyone. If they are bad GMs and PCs, WoW allows them to kill stuff and play in railroad stories without GM controlled options. If gamer can’t show up on time, don’t have a car, or lack the initiative to get out of their chairs, then WoW allows them to become heroes from the convenience of their bedrooms. If gamers lack social skills, they can shout their heads off in WoW, get booted and then go play Everquest. I don’t know about you, but I’m going to game with DaveMage, Qwillon, Mouseferatu, and BlackRedBlue… :) Have you not been following the barrage of notes about this across the internet and among the FLGS supporters with social skills? There’s a lot of people that enjoy the excitement of TRPGs more than CRPGs. Gamers are going to hunt each other down and pay the $20 a month meetup.com fee if necessary to find a group to play with. Or use organized play. … The question I’ll ask to you is… why didn’t the D&D team plan for this before releasing the OGL license? You know, the license that doesn’t require a licensing fee? How short-sighted was this? How much more money did Hasbro make off D&D because someone really wanted to play the Red Dinosaur RPG, but need the PHB to do it? How much money did they lose because company X released the Red Dinosaur RPG before they could? If you ask me, TRPGs were being lowered into the casket around 1999… but 3.0 gave them a shot of adrenaline and BAM; Frankenstein is alive once again. But if I wanted to know which two poisons killed it…I would look to 3.5 and that free open source document. And since no one on this thread except you was involved in either of those decisions, why is it the worry of the game community to find some heart paddles to bring it back to life? So. Here’s another question. Also known in some circles as competition. Then TRPGs are doomed! You’re rattling the same saber that historical gamers and war gamers have been rattling for 20 years. Game companies need to grow up and learn that a staff of 1,600 administrators and 2 writers is probably a bad design model for a niche hobby. And if they really want it to thrive, they need to target their product at the numbers geeks that thought Star Fleet Battles and Shadowrun involved simple math or target them at the LARP community that touts itself as socially refined in contrast. [Huge generalizations, I know.] The wargame community bounced back by making simpler games. When does the RPG community get a clue? If someone of your professional caliber is worried about all this (and I don’t believe people in your position ever are), then why is there never a 10-year plan? Why was 3.5 released, effectively fracturing D&D players into three camps (3.0, 3.5, and never going to play either again, ever)? As for the second half of that statement, all things become extinct. ALL. You need to worry about the end of clean air and water before you worry about the death of the TRPG, because those two things are coming in the next 10 years, not the next 30. And if the end really is extremely f***ing nigh, then get used to the response gamers have been hearing for years: “Whatever the market will bear.” We always come back to the banner I’ve been carrying for years… bad gamers drive people from the hobby. You can’t cure what people are (short of a plague), so you’d better start learning to adapt your product to every walk of beast out there. WoW doesn’t care if wear the same clothes to every game sessions. I see only three options: * Someone comes up with a way to show that the TRPG experience has value and utility that can't be replaced in an MMORPG, and markets that feature effectively to 12-15 year olds, as well as the existing TRPG population, and allows the TRPG player network to exist safely in parallel with the MMORPG network. * The TRPG field evolves into a new format with a new genre and targets a new group of players - a new niche market for some reason safe from predation by the fantasy MMORPG titans. * MMORPGs do turn out to be a fad, and their business models collapse, leaving a residue of some unknown number of new "RPG" players seeking a way to continue to engage in their hobby even after the games that brought them to the concept have been shut off, and the TRPG player network co-opts them. All I know for certain is that something has to change, and start changing fast, or the network for TRPGs risks hitting that critical threshold of "holes".[/QUOTE] Well. For those of us in Southern California, this happened 10 years ago. If you don’t meet people in college or your local convention, you don’t meet people to game with. So, either the desire to play is there or its not. How desperate are you to game? Will you roll up characters with the guy who plays NINJAS? Or the gamer who dents every chair you own? Or the one who argues about the rules at every session? What is your threshold? After all, a thirsty man in the desert will s*ck off a camel. So… is TRPG need or want? [/QUOTE]
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