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<blockquote data-quote="Arial Black" data-source="post: 7561149" data-attributes="member: 6799649"><p>Pedantic? I?</p><p></p><p>I like your approach, but I disagree with your conclusion.</p><p></p><p>Some actions are basically instantaneous. When you switch the light on, you either have or you haven't.</p><p></p><p>But some actions are continuous, and if you <em>start</em> to do something but are still in the middle of doing it then you can't claim that you're not.</p><p></p><p>As for the conditional:-</p><p></p><p>"<strong>If</strong> you take a law degree, <strong>then</strong> you may use the law library".</p><p></p><p>This is an 'if/then' statement, where the action (take a law degree) is continuous for several years! The purpose of the law library is to help law students pass their law degree, but those students who are not taking a law degree are not allowed to access the law library.</p><p></p><p>Sure, the conditional must be satisfied in order to get the result. But if it were the case that that the conditional must in all cases be started, gone through, and completed <em>before</em> the result, then how would it work in the above example?</p><p></p><p>'If you take the law degree', with that understanding, would mean that you cannot access the law library until <em>after</em> you have completed your degree!</p><p></p><p>That obviously (and I hope it is obvious!) would be absurd! The conditional does not have to be <em>completed</em>.</p><p></p><p>In fact, in some cases it might not even have to begin!</p><p></p><p>"<strong>If</strong> you take a law degree, <strong>then</strong> you can take a room in the law dormitory".</p><p></p><p>You are allowed to take a room in the dormitory before you even attend your first lecture, before your course actually starts. Just saying you will, in the immediate future, take a law degree is enough.</p><p></p><p>"You cannot practice law until you have passed the bar exam".</p><p></p><p>Here, it is not enough that you <em>will</em> pass the bar, or that you are in the middle of passing the bar, you must have <em>completed</em> passing the bar in order to practice law! Note that 'passing the bar' is really an instantaneous action rather than an ongoing one.</p><p></p><p>So, pedandically parsing Shield Master:-</p><p></p><p>"<strong>If</strong> you take the Attack action on your turn, (<strong>then</strong>) you can use a bonus action to try to shove a creature..."</p><p></p><p>While executing a single attack is an instantaneous action with just a 'before' and 'after', the Attack action is an ongoing action that could last from the beginning of your turn to the end if your Attack action lets you take more than one attack.</p><p></p><p>So, as with the law student example, merely being an if/then conditional certainly does <strong>not</strong> imply that the continuous action must be <em>completed</em> before you can shield bash, and I would even argue that you don't even have to have executed the first attack yet, although the second one is debatable.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Arial Black, post: 7561149, member: 6799649"] Pedantic? I? I like your approach, but I disagree with your conclusion. Some actions are basically instantaneous. When you switch the light on, you either have or you haven't. But some actions are continuous, and if you [i]start[/i] to do something but are still in the middle of doing it then you can't claim that you're not. As for the conditional:- "[b]If[/b] you take a law degree, [b]then[/b] you may use the law library". This is an 'if/then' statement, where the action (take a law degree) is continuous for several years! The purpose of the law library is to help law students pass their law degree, but those students who are not taking a law degree are not allowed to access the law library. Sure, the conditional must be satisfied in order to get the result. But if it were the case that that the conditional must in all cases be started, gone through, and completed [i]before[/i] the result, then how would it work in the above example? 'If you take the law degree', with that understanding, would mean that you cannot access the law library until [i]after[/i] you have completed your degree! That obviously (and I hope it is obvious!) would be absurd! The conditional does not have to be [i]completed[/i]. In fact, in some cases it might not even have to begin! "[b]If[/b] you take a law degree, [b]then[/b] you can take a room in the law dormitory". You are allowed to take a room in the dormitory before you even attend your first lecture, before your course actually starts. Just saying you will, in the immediate future, take a law degree is enough. "You cannot practice law until you have passed the bar exam". Here, it is not enough that you [i]will[/i] pass the bar, or that you are in the middle of passing the bar, you must have [i]completed[/i] passing the bar in order to practice law! Note that 'passing the bar' is really an instantaneous action rather than an ongoing one. So, pedandically parsing Shield Master:- "[b]If[/b] you take the Attack action on your turn, ([b]then[/b]) you can use a bonus action to try to shove a creature..." While executing a single attack is an instantaneous action with just a 'before' and 'after', the Attack action is an ongoing action that could last from the beginning of your turn to the end if your Attack action lets you take more than one attack. So, as with the law student example, merely being an if/then conditional certainly does [b]not[/b] imply that the continuous action must be [i]completed[/i] before you can shield bash, and I would even argue that you don't even have to have executed the first attack yet, although the second one is debatable. [/QUOTE]
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