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<blockquote data-quote="Zarrock God of Evil" data-source="post: 1808892" data-attributes="member: 2025"><p>The "good dm, good players, desire to have fun" argument is all well and good and I'm sure everyone here agrees to it, but I don't see how it adds anything to a discussion of rules mechanics. You and I and most other EnWorlders may have the privilige of DMing or playing in such "good" groups, but then again you don't design a system to work in an optimal environment do you? I'm a subscriber to Murphy's Law and I believe in designing things that can handle the worst case scenario. </p><p></p><p>Sure you cannot sneak attack undead, but you can create another ability that deals extra damage to undead and base a rogue class around it, getting the same effect. Sure you cannot grapple incorporeal undead since that would require you to change the definition of incorporeal or grapple but you could create supernatural abilities like "ghostcatcher" (ghostbusters like energy containment or whatnot) or create geographical locales or times-of-day when incorporeal undead are forced into a "corporeal" form and thus can be grappled if that's the focus of your campaign (Wrestling Ghostbusters - should be a great campaign actually <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite2" alt=";)" title="Wink ;)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=";)" /> ). You want clerics to cast fireball? Add it to the Fire domain list as a 4th level spell - this is in correspondance with other wizard spells on the Cleric domain list. Problem solved. </p><p></p><p>More realistic falling damage is actually a pretty non-controversial rule and I'm not sure its the kind of rule Sean would have any beef with. In your "Grim Fantasy" sourcebook you simply add a sidebar: Optional Rule - Realistic Falling Damage and explain how falling damage now does 1d10 dam per 10 ft. fallen and how you have to succeed a Fort. save vs. DC 10 + ½ dam suffered or die if you fall more than 30 ft.</p><p></p><p>The "cut-your-self" out mechanism does seem rather silly yes and from a logical, realworld perspective it is certainly contrived but it's made this way to fit into the core system. If there's a gaping hole in the creatures belly, does it suffer damage from bleeding? Uh, don't think so, we may need a bleeding mechanic! If a second character is swallowed can he locate the same gaping/not-so-gaping hole? Does it require a check? Does the creature have multiple stomachs (like the Dragon Cow) and if yes, in which stomach is the second character, the one with or without hole? Sure you are allowed to change this rule, but just be ready close the can-of-worms again. IMO, this is Sean's message, if you design a rule that breaks with the "core", you better deal with all the ripples it causes throughout the system. If you don't, it's bad game design.</p><p></p><p>-Zarrock</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Zarrock God of Evil, post: 1808892, member: 2025"] The "good dm, good players, desire to have fun" argument is all well and good and I'm sure everyone here agrees to it, but I don't see how it adds anything to a discussion of rules mechanics. You and I and most other EnWorlders may have the privilige of DMing or playing in such "good" groups, but then again you don't design a system to work in an optimal environment do you? I'm a subscriber to Murphy's Law and I believe in designing things that can handle the worst case scenario. Sure you cannot sneak attack undead, but you can create another ability that deals extra damage to undead and base a rogue class around it, getting the same effect. Sure you cannot grapple incorporeal undead since that would require you to change the definition of incorporeal or grapple but you could create supernatural abilities like "ghostcatcher" (ghostbusters like energy containment or whatnot) or create geographical locales or times-of-day when incorporeal undead are forced into a "corporeal" form and thus can be grappled if that's the focus of your campaign (Wrestling Ghostbusters - should be a great campaign actually ;) ). You want clerics to cast fireball? Add it to the Fire domain list as a 4th level spell - this is in correspondance with other wizard spells on the Cleric domain list. Problem solved. More realistic falling damage is actually a pretty non-controversial rule and I'm not sure its the kind of rule Sean would have any beef with. In your "Grim Fantasy" sourcebook you simply add a sidebar: Optional Rule - Realistic Falling Damage and explain how falling damage now does 1d10 dam per 10 ft. fallen and how you have to succeed a Fort. save vs. DC 10 + ½ dam suffered or die if you fall more than 30 ft. The "cut-your-self" out mechanism does seem rather silly yes and from a logical, realworld perspective it is certainly contrived but it's made this way to fit into the core system. If there's a gaping hole in the creatures belly, does it suffer damage from bleeding? Uh, don't think so, we may need a bleeding mechanic! If a second character is swallowed can he locate the same gaping/not-so-gaping hole? Does it require a check? Does the creature have multiple stomachs (like the Dragon Cow) and if yes, in which stomach is the second character, the one with or without hole? Sure you are allowed to change this rule, but just be ready close the can-of-worms again. IMO, this is Sean's message, if you design a rule that breaks with the "core", you better deal with all the ripples it causes throughout the system. If you don't, it's bad game design. -Zarrock [/QUOTE]
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