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<blockquote data-quote="Zarrock God of Evil" data-source="post: 1808900" data-attributes="member: 2025"><p>I think this post pretty much sums up the problem we have here in this argument - people are not talking about the same thing. Pretty much any argument that can run for this amount of pages and still hasn't reached an agreement is a sign of one of three things:</p><p></p><p>1. People don't want to agree.</p><p>2. People are not talking about the same thing or misunderstand each other's messages </p><p>3. People are operating with a set of radically different assumptions and presuppositions that are by nature irreconcilable.</p><p></p><p>I don't believe the first applies in this discussion, nor very often on EnWorld in general, so the explanation clearly lies somewhere inside the realm of the latter two causes.</p><p></p><p>In my perception a lot of people here seemed to have missed the gist of SEAN's argument, just as I may or may not have missed the gist of yours. As I said, he's not trying to prevent you from implementing crits on undead in your campaign, he's telling designers that if they do a thing like that, they should consider all the possible side-effects and explain how this changes the core assumptions of the d20 system. If they cannot, for one reason or another, the prudent thing would be to implement a similar rule that DOES NOT change the core assumptions.</p><p></p><p>To elucidate my point:</p><p></p><p>Question: Critting undead: bad design or good design?</p><p></p><p>Answer: Bad design.</p><p></p><p>Question: Critting undead and explaining how this affects the entire balance of the game, how CRs on Undead should be adjusted in such encounters,how these criticals are explained etc.</p><p></p><p>Answer: Good design.</p><p></p><p>Questions: Not critting undead, but implementing another ability that allows certain classes or characters with certain feats to increase their damage against undead.</p><p></p><p>Answer: Good design.</p><p></p><p></p><p>I don't see how this point is missing the gist of the argument, but I do realise that we may never agree on this, not in 20 pages of posts and not in a 100, and I accept this. I do not consider your opinion inferior to mine nor am I insulted about your lack of agreement with me, Sean, or my arguments. I can only conclude that our tastes, assumptions, and expectations differ in certain areas. All I expect in return is the same courtesy, no more and no less.</p><p></p><p>-Zarrock</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Zarrock God of Evil, post: 1808900, member: 2025"] I think this post pretty much sums up the problem we have here in this argument - people are not talking about the same thing. Pretty much any argument that can run for this amount of pages and still hasn't reached an agreement is a sign of one of three things: 1. People don't want to agree. 2. People are not talking about the same thing or misunderstand each other's messages 3. People are operating with a set of radically different assumptions and presuppositions that are by nature irreconcilable. I don't believe the first applies in this discussion, nor very often on EnWorld in general, so the explanation clearly lies somewhere inside the realm of the latter two causes. In my perception a lot of people here seemed to have missed the gist of SEAN's argument, just as I may or may not have missed the gist of yours. As I said, he's not trying to prevent you from implementing crits on undead in your campaign, he's telling designers that if they do a thing like that, they should consider all the possible side-effects and explain how this changes the core assumptions of the d20 system. If they cannot, for one reason or another, the prudent thing would be to implement a similar rule that DOES NOT change the core assumptions. To elucidate my point: Question: Critting undead: bad design or good design? Answer: Bad design. Question: Critting undead and explaining how this affects the entire balance of the game, how CRs on Undead should be adjusted in such encounters,how these criticals are explained etc. Answer: Good design. Questions: Not critting undead, but implementing another ability that allows certain classes or characters with certain feats to increase their damage against undead. Answer: Good design. I don't see how this point is missing the gist of the argument, but I do realise that we may never agree on this, not in 20 pages of posts and not in a 100, and I accept this. I do not consider your opinion inferior to mine nor am I insulted about your lack of agreement with me, Sean, or my arguments. I can only conclude that our tastes, assumptions, and expectations differ in certain areas. All I expect in return is the same courtesy, no more and no less. -Zarrock [/QUOTE]
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