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Seeking advice for new 4E game inspired by Pemerton
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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 6984057" data-attributes="member: 42582"><p>[MENTION=6667121]jacktannery[/MENTION]</p><p></p><p>I like (1) and (3). I'd be cautious with (2) - have a read of <a href="https://isabout.wordpress.com/2010/02/16/the-pitfalls-of-narrative-technique-in-rpg-play/" target="_blank">this blog by Eero Tuovinen</a>. The basic point of the blog is this: the game can become unsatisfying if the players get to improv the backstory that is key to the challenges they're facing.</p><p></p><p>I'd suggest that when the players want to improv in some helpful backstory, at least make it require a check or be part of a skill challenge - Streetwise is probably appropriate for social backstory (eg helpful friends, safe houses etc); History and Nature would probably be the other main ones. (Even a Diplomacy check to establish, as backstory, that the PC learned some helpful info from a contact before the PCs left town.) That way, improv-ing backstory becomes another tool, but it sucks up effort/resources like any other check would.</p><p></p><p>Q1: I'd pitch a game in a setting/genre that you've got ideas for. Which will include the opening.</p><p>Q2: Not much, sorry. [MENTION=6696971]Manbearcat[/MENTION] GMed a PBP on these boards of Dungeon World that I was part of, but the different timezones and delay in exchange were a bit of an issue.</p><p>Q3: When I started my long-running 4e game, I told the players that each PC (1) had to have a reason to be ready to fight goblins (because I was planning to use Night's Dark Terror, which has, as its big opening, defending a homestead against a goblin assault), and (2) something/someone to which the PC is loyal. This gave me some political/cultural/religious elements to play on - it was the starting point for the Raven Queen/Orcus rivalry to be at the centre of the campaign.</p><p>Q4: Maybe people who have had experience with DW, BW or some similar game - or, at least, you need to make it clear that the game will not be "standard" AP-style PF/D&D.</p><p></p><p>My favourite piece of GMing advice is the BW Adventure Burner. I'd do some reading around at the Forge, and maybe download Burning THACO if it's still free at BWHQ.</p><p></p><p>EDIT: I'd distinguish "Yes, and . . ." - which is an improv rule - from "Say 'yes' or roll the dice", which is a pacing/resolution rule. The former, use with caution as I said. The latter I think is pretty important to pacing and non-railroading. If there's nothing at stake, then the PC succeeds provided it makes sense given genre and background; if there's something at stake then the dice are rolled even if the chance of failure is very low. Notice the flip-side of this - provided its in genre and consistent with background, the DC is set and the player can roll the dice to see if it succeeds. This is how you avoid railroading.</p><p></p><p>You can see the two ideas come together in <a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?490454-Session-report-reposted-PCs-stave-of-the-Dusk-War-by-negotiating-with-Yan-C-Bin-and-defeating-the-tarrasque" target="_blank">this episode from my game</a>: the PCs believe that the Dusk War is not yet coming, and the players want to make it true in the fiction - this is about establishing background, so an improv-type issue; and they achieve this by declaring and succeeding at certain actions (eg defeating the tarrasque easily) - this is about pacing and action resolution, so a "say 'yes' or roll the dice"-type issue.</p><p></p><p>That episode also shows the role of background-in-flux rather than all pre-written by the GM. My number-one mantra in a lot of the threads around here about pacing, railroading, etc is that action resolution shouldn't depend on GM's secret backstory (the example of the Duke in the 4e DMG more-or-less hits my limits - the auto-failure of Intimidate is due to a bit of secret backstory, but the players can extract that backstory in the same moment of resolution, via successful Insight - so it's analogous to a monster's resitance or immunity, which is "secret" until used but amenable to being learned via Monster Knowledge).</p><p></p><p>If you allow action resolution by the players to establish backstory then sometimes this can collide with your conception, as GM, of what Luke Crane calls The Big Picture. My approach to this is that it's very much context sensitive and "play it by ear" - but if you're going to veto something on Big Picture grounds, then I would strongly advise being upfront about it. Tell the players that that bit of backstory is off-limits because it's part of your behind-the-scenes set-up. Don't roll the dice behind the screen, giving the impression that success was possible, and then tell them that they fail! Secret dice rolls are, in general, anathema to this sort of RPGing.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 6984057, member: 42582"] [MENTION=6667121]jacktannery[/MENTION] I like (1) and (3). I'd be cautious with (2) - have a read of [url=https://isabout.wordpress.com/2010/02/16/the-pitfalls-of-narrative-technique-in-rpg-play/]this blog by Eero Tuovinen[/url]. The basic point of the blog is this: the game can become unsatisfying if the players get to improv the backstory that is key to the challenges they're facing. I'd suggest that when the players want to improv in some helpful backstory, at least make it require a check or be part of a skill challenge - Streetwise is probably appropriate for social backstory (eg helpful friends, safe houses etc); History and Nature would probably be the other main ones. (Even a Diplomacy check to establish, as backstory, that the PC learned some helpful info from a contact before the PCs left town.) That way, improv-ing backstory becomes another tool, but it sucks up effort/resources like any other check would. Q1: I'd pitch a game in a setting/genre that you've got ideas for. Which will include the opening. Q2: Not much, sorry. [MENTION=6696971]Manbearcat[/MENTION] GMed a PBP on these boards of Dungeon World that I was part of, but the different timezones and delay in exchange were a bit of an issue. Q3: When I started my long-running 4e game, I told the players that each PC (1) had to have a reason to be ready to fight goblins (because I was planning to use Night's Dark Terror, which has, as its big opening, defending a homestead against a goblin assault), and (2) something/someone to which the PC is loyal. This gave me some political/cultural/religious elements to play on - it was the starting point for the Raven Queen/Orcus rivalry to be at the centre of the campaign. Q4: Maybe people who have had experience with DW, BW or some similar game - or, at least, you need to make it clear that the game will not be "standard" AP-style PF/D&D. My favourite piece of GMing advice is the BW Adventure Burner. I'd do some reading around at the Forge, and maybe download Burning THACO if it's still free at BWHQ. EDIT: I'd distinguish "Yes, and . . ." - which is an improv rule - from "Say 'yes' or roll the dice", which is a pacing/resolution rule. The former, use with caution as I said. The latter I think is pretty important to pacing and non-railroading. If there's nothing at stake, then the PC succeeds provided it makes sense given genre and background; if there's something at stake then the dice are rolled even if the chance of failure is very low. Notice the flip-side of this - provided its in genre and consistent with background, the DC is set and the player can roll the dice to see if it succeeds. This is how you avoid railroading. You can see the two ideas come together in [url=http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?490454-Session-report-reposted-PCs-stave-of-the-Dusk-War-by-negotiating-with-Yan-C-Bin-and-defeating-the-tarrasque]this episode from my game[/url]: the PCs believe that the Dusk War is not yet coming, and the players want to make it true in the fiction - this is about establishing background, so an improv-type issue; and they achieve this by declaring and succeeding at certain actions (eg defeating the tarrasque easily) - this is about pacing and action resolution, so a "say 'yes' or roll the dice"-type issue. That episode also shows the role of background-in-flux rather than all pre-written by the GM. My number-one mantra in a lot of the threads around here about pacing, railroading, etc is that action resolution shouldn't depend on GM's secret backstory (the example of the Duke in the 4e DMG more-or-less hits my limits - the auto-failure of Intimidate is due to a bit of secret backstory, but the players can extract that backstory in the same moment of resolution, via successful Insight - so it's analogous to a monster's resitance or immunity, which is "secret" until used but amenable to being learned via Monster Knowledge). If you allow action resolution by the players to establish backstory then sometimes this can collide with your conception, as GM, of what Luke Crane calls The Big Picture. My approach to this is that it's very much context sensitive and "play it by ear" - but if you're going to veto something on Big Picture grounds, then I would strongly advise being upfront about it. Tell the players that that bit of backstory is off-limits because it's part of your behind-the-scenes set-up. Don't roll the dice behind the screen, giving the impression that success was possible, and then tell them that they fail! Secret dice rolls are, in general, anathema to this sort of RPGing. [/QUOTE]
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