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D&D Older Editions
Seeking advice for new 4E game inspired by Pemerton
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<blockquote data-quote="chaochou" data-source="post: 6984085" data-attributes="member: 99817"><p>I know you like to quote the Czege Principle! But I've found in practice that it rarely comes up - and that as a statement it is too simplistic. Eero does a decent job though of explaining how the <em>uncritical</em> passing of narrative rights can be unsatisfying.</p><p></p><p>I think for this game it's important to have a process to set it up. A poor process will greatly reduce the chance of the resulting game living up to expectations.</p><p></p><p>Firstly, instead of "no world-building" I would look at collective world-building. I've written about this in the past, but I'm rubbish at finding my own sparse contributions to these boards. Anyway, the power of collective world-building is that it acts as a great springboard for players to have threats and opportunities, goals, allies and enemies, hopes and fears, dependencies and obligations. </p><p></p><p>Players who create the world end up:</p><p>a) invested in it</p><p>b) knowledgeable enough about it on their own to establish relationships with it's key elements without GM input</p><p></p><p>These days I will always start with jointly establishing setting, before we get to characters. I think all the players have to be present for this, for the reasons above. Get everyone invested in the genre and then in world-building to act as the basis to drive creation of characters and their goals, duties, obligations.</p><p></p><p>My setting-building processes can vary. Fate games are good to read as they have procedures for doing so. Dresden Files (modern supernatural) and Diaspora (hard sci-fi) both work very well. I have stolen ideas liberally from them.</p><p></p><p>In my recent game we used a big sheet of paper in the centre of the table and everyone had a pencil and we went round and each person added a little drawing of a thing - a river, a place, a territory or empire - something strange or unknown - and gave it a cool, evocative name. The Stumps or Badwater or Gangland Creek or The Temple of the Herd. What this does in theory terms is systemically create the 'Yes, and...' approach where the next person goes 'Ohh, coool.. that could be a temple run by a vampire prince...' Things aren't <em>concrete </em> - they are just evocative names still - but it creates ideas which <em>everyone </em>is participating in. I think this is an important part of the game, even before the players have characters.</p><p></p><p>Okay, enough about that. My other comments relate to the point about player contributions to the world or scene. As @<em><strong><u><a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/member.php?u=42582" target="_blank">pemerton</a></u></strong></em> already said, this requires care. Fate has an economy where players can pay a token to make something true in the world. But Fate has a carefully conceived <em>economy </em>of these tokens at the heart of gameplay. 4e does not. </p><p></p><p>When I run, a lot of my time is spent asking questions of the players. Often very loaded questions. But questions that make the players commit definitively to something. An example totally off the top of my head, is if the player playing Zesty tells me they like to gamble, I might say:</p><p></p><p>"So, Zesty, who's your bookmaker?"</p><p>And they improvise; "It's a guy called Fat Charles who I used to run with at The Stumps"</p><p>And I might come back with something open-ended like: "So how come he says he's a dead man if he goes back there?" or something closed like: "So who ran him outta there and says he's a dead man?"</p><p>And so on.</p><p>I might ask something like: "So how much did you lose last time? 1000GPs, 2000? How long have you got to pay it back?"</p><p></p><p>When players are given narration rights it is important that it happens within context, and often with constraints. In a collaborative approach, I think it's vital for the GM to have questions that interest them about each character.</p><p></p><p>Lastly from me - while it has been done by people on these boards, I don't think 4e is the most natural fit for the game you are proposing. Dungeon World, Apocalypse World or a game based on the Fate system will all <strong><em>give you mechanical support</em></strong> for your chosen style, while 4e (in my view) is the D&D version <strong><em>which will hinder you least</em></strong>.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="chaochou, post: 6984085, member: 99817"] I know you like to quote the Czege Principle! But I've found in practice that it rarely comes up - and that as a statement it is too simplistic. Eero does a decent job though of explaining how the [I]uncritical[/I] passing of narrative rights can be unsatisfying. I think for this game it's important to have a process to set it up. A poor process will greatly reduce the chance of the resulting game living up to expectations. Firstly, instead of "no world-building" I would look at collective world-building. I've written about this in the past, but I'm rubbish at finding my own sparse contributions to these boards. Anyway, the power of collective world-building is that it acts as a great springboard for players to have threats and opportunities, goals, allies and enemies, hopes and fears, dependencies and obligations. Players who create the world end up: a) invested in it b) knowledgeable enough about it on their own to establish relationships with it's key elements without GM input These days I will always start with jointly establishing setting, before we get to characters. I think all the players have to be present for this, for the reasons above. Get everyone invested in the genre and then in world-building to act as the basis to drive creation of characters and their goals, duties, obligations. My setting-building processes can vary. Fate games are good to read as they have procedures for doing so. Dresden Files (modern supernatural) and Diaspora (hard sci-fi) both work very well. I have stolen ideas liberally from them. In my recent game we used a big sheet of paper in the centre of the table and everyone had a pencil and we went round and each person added a little drawing of a thing - a river, a place, a territory or empire - something strange or unknown - and gave it a cool, evocative name. The Stumps or Badwater or Gangland Creek or The Temple of the Herd. What this does in theory terms is systemically create the 'Yes, and...' approach where the next person goes 'Ohh, coool.. that could be a temple run by a vampire prince...' Things aren't [I]concrete [/I] - they are just evocative names still - but it creates ideas which [I]everyone [/I]is participating in. I think this is an important part of the game, even before the players have characters. Okay, enough about that. My other comments relate to the point about player contributions to the world or scene. As @[I][B][U][URL="http://www.enworld.org/forum/member.php?u=42582"]pemerton[/URL][/U][/B][/I] already said, this requires care. Fate has an economy where players can pay a token to make something true in the world. But Fate has a carefully conceived [I]economy [/I]of these tokens at the heart of gameplay. 4e does not. When I run, a lot of my time is spent asking questions of the players. Often very loaded questions. But questions that make the players commit definitively to something. An example totally off the top of my head, is if the player playing Zesty tells me they like to gamble, I might say: "So, Zesty, who's your bookmaker?" And they improvise; "It's a guy called Fat Charles who I used to run with at The Stumps" And I might come back with something open-ended like: "So how come he says he's a dead man if he goes back there?" or something closed like: "So who ran him outta there and says he's a dead man?" And so on. I might ask something like: "So how much did you lose last time? 1000GPs, 2000? How long have you got to pay it back?" When players are given narration rights it is important that it happens within context, and often with constraints. In a collaborative approach, I think it's vital for the GM to have questions that interest them about each character. Lastly from me - while it has been done by people on these boards, I don't think 4e is the most natural fit for the game you are proposing. Dungeon World, Apocalypse World or a game based on the Fate system will all [B][I]give you mechanical support[/I][/B] for your chosen style, while 4e (in my view) is the D&D version [B][I]which will hinder you least[/I][/B]. [/QUOTE]
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