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Self Publishing: What's An Artist Worth?
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<blockquote data-quote="GreyLord" data-source="post: 7768663" data-attributes="member: 4348"><p>I haven't read through the entire thread, but can surmise my experiences with some of the industry as follows...</p><p></p><p>Before I go on, I should say this is MY OPINION...</p><p></p><p>The problem I see is that MANY artists think they are BETTER then they are and WORTH MORE than they really are. </p><p></p><p>If an artist really is THAT good, I'll pay the price for them, but there are so many of them out there that THINK they are worth it, it's ridiculous. </p><p></p><p>I know one artist that said they charged $300 for a piece of their art.</p><p></p><p>This is an artist that had graduated college, never had ANY artwork really published except for that with relatives, and their artwork looked more like a cartoon than anything I wanted. The bigger difficulty is that they could NOT CHANGE their style, as an artist they were VERY limited.</p><p></p><p>I'd pay them $25 for what they offered, IF I even wanted it. </p><p></p><p>This artist probably thought I was trying to cheat them. In reality, as the one who would be PAYING such a thing, I WAS the one who they were trying to cheat. WHY would I pay them $300 for a piece of art that was basically useless for what I needed it for when I could use that same amount of money to hire a full time artist (at around 42K a year, or something around $20 an hour) who would could put out the same or better quality at 2 or 3 pictures a day (which is $80 per picture at that amount per hour, or with benefits around $120 per picture), OR one ten times better in the style I wanted for a similar or lesser price when hired?</p><p></p><p>Or if I did it on a per hire basis, once again, WHY should I pay them that amount to an unproven artist?</p><p></p><p>Even more so, since I can do art myself, perhaps the bar should be they should at LEAST BE ABLE TO DO ART BETTER THAN I DO if they want to get paid, OR expect similar payments to what I get.</p><p></p><p>Now, if I were starting out, and didn't have the funds, I MIGHT offer to share profits with the artist. It would DEPEND ON HOW MUCH TIME was spent in their art and what quality it was. </p><p></p><p>IF I spend 500 hours writing and editing a book, but they spend 80 hours illustrating...what is a decent percentage to split with them. In that light I'd say a 20/80 split simply due to time investment.</p><p></p><p>Of course, that is risky to the artist. If they get a bad seller that return may be zero dollars, or even in the negatives.</p><p></p><p>If they are REALLY lucky they might make a small profit of less than $100 (which equates to less than $2 an hour).</p><p></p><p>OR, if they hit the bonsai they may actually do well...but it is rare.</p><p></p><p>AS has been alluded to, stock art is a good option IF you know you are good and are just starting out, or various other avenues. Getting an AGENT that works with publishers is probably a better idea. They have an idea of just how good an artist really may be and whether they are worth their weight or not. </p><p></p><p>In addition, it SAVES publishers and writers TIME as they do not have to waste it with hack artists who think they are underpaid when in reality they have just self inflated their own egos on how good an artist they really are.</p><p></p><p>That does not mean I think that an artist should roll over and accept anything that is given them, and DEFINATELY NOT just do art for exposure. The same would apply to a writer a publisher. IF the writer is not a proven writer, WHY would you waste your art on them without something at least compensatory. A writer should not expect an artist to spend $50 on art supplies, a dozen hours or more on an art piece and then get paid shillings on the pence just for the opportunity to get their artwork out there. </p><p></p><p>Depending on the type of artwork needed, let's take an illustrator that works at a decent rate of at least four pieces a day, or for a full cover type illustration, at a maximum a week (normally a LOT less, we are being very lenient in some ways). For a beginning artist, we'll say they get above minimum wage and give them $15 an hour. That means for a quicker piece of art, even if we say only two a day, you could expect an offer somewhere between $60 and $100...and that is around what I might expect for it.</p><p></p><p>If it is really something done quick, then if it takes less than an hour to do, $15 is NOT unreasonable. </p><p></p><p>Something that takes longer, let's say a weeks worth, should be around $600 at that rate. If it takes you longer than that, perhaps you should rethink how you compare to other working artists.</p><p></p><p>This is a beginning artist. You are NOT at the top of the food chain. You are NOT proven yet, and to expect to be paid MORE than full time employed artists is pure arrogance. I see this a LOT with artists just getting out there. They want you to pay $1000 for a commission on junk that is unproven.</p><p></p><p>This is harsh, but AFTER one pays their dues (meaning they work their way upwards in recognition, background, etc) should they expect top tier pay for their work.</p><p></p><p>However, someone who wants to do illustration (as opposed to other forms of artwork) should realize that many publishers already have their stock standard employee/contractor artists already set. These people are NOT looking to pay someone MORE than they would those they already work with. Normally they are not even WILLING to cut their trusted illustrators for someone else (and doing so causes bad faith). If they DO start handing out artwork requests it is because there is more art they need than their normals can handle, and in that instance they are probably going to want to pay LESS overall then their current group is paid.</p><p></p><p>I do NOT advocate anyone asking to be paid in pennies or simply for exposure. If it is a startup type thing, then asking for a percentage of the profits is reasonable (in my estimation) if the thought is that pricing is too expensive. However, I also think that asking hundreds of dollars for a piece of art when someone is new to the industry, unless it is a bigger piece, is one of the MAJOR problems a LOT of starting artists make today.</p><p></p><p>They think they are the next big thing, and they should be paid as such, when in reality no one wants to pay them those types of amounts except the truly desperate and those who do not know any better. Reasonable pricing should be looked at, how much time it costs the artist and how much materials they spend.</p><p></p><p>No one should be charging $25 for a quick sketch that takes them less then 15 minutes when they are low or mid tier...though if they want to try their luck at carnival/fair caricatures and charging that...go for it. (most art is not seeking caricature type art work).</p><p></p><p>On the otherhand, even a starting artist should not expect anything less than $50 for a day's worth of work, or even $80 if it takes them a day to do something. One should be paid at LEAST a minimum. </p><p></p><p>Of course, the other thing to realize is HOW FAST you can work with an effective ability. Illustrators at times are given deadlines and expectations in regards to how fast they can work and how much. Some of the top illustrators out there that I'm aware of are NOT the best artist (believe it or not). They are relatively good artists that can work quickly. Time can be money.</p><p></p><p>There are many different scales out there on how much out there. On an average I would say around $20 an hour is a good level to base the amount of money you charge once you are not just at the basic level of a nobody. </p><p></p><p>IF YOU DO GET REALLY well known, charging $1000+ per picture is not unknown, especially if you are illustrating a book (and then you could get anywhere from 15K to 50K depending on the book). </p><p></p><p>Expecting that right out of the gate though, I think that's a crazy notion that FAR too many beginning artists expect these days and it ends up biting them rather than helping them. </p><p></p><p>(and vice versa, too many starting artist devalue what they do too much and think that they will work for exposure on unproven projects. Sure, it can work out once in a while, but there are far too many failed projects for me to really think that is a good idea either).</p><p></p><p>For self-publishing, I'm a cheapskate typically and either do the art myself or con someone I know to illustrate it if their style matches what I am looking for. A more recent RPG project I did (well, in the past few years, so a few years ago) it was basically a trade. I did some uncredited writing for them (which was probably valued around 15-20K) in return for a few of their illustrations (some of which I liked, some which I didn't, but used anyways). That is an example of unpaid work (in theory) but it was NOT uncompensated (I did a LOT of work prior to that in trade for the artwork I received in return).</p><p></p><p>Even then, I LET THEM RETAIN the rights to their artwork. That's the other sham I see a lot of. Many self-published writers want to OWN someone else's artwork. If they WANT to OWN the rights, that SHOULD cost them a little more money (IN MY OPINION) than the normal going rate...UNLESS it is going to lead to permanent employment or continuing contracts with a company (in which case, no slack should be given on normal pay for the artwork).</p><p></p><p>Just my two coppers on the entire What an Artist is worth scenario.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="GreyLord, post: 7768663, member: 4348"] I haven't read through the entire thread, but can surmise my experiences with some of the industry as follows... Before I go on, I should say this is MY OPINION... The problem I see is that MANY artists think they are BETTER then they are and WORTH MORE than they really are. If an artist really is THAT good, I'll pay the price for them, but there are so many of them out there that THINK they are worth it, it's ridiculous. I know one artist that said they charged $300 for a piece of their art. This is an artist that had graduated college, never had ANY artwork really published except for that with relatives, and their artwork looked more like a cartoon than anything I wanted. The bigger difficulty is that they could NOT CHANGE their style, as an artist they were VERY limited. I'd pay them $25 for what they offered, IF I even wanted it. This artist probably thought I was trying to cheat them. In reality, as the one who would be PAYING such a thing, I WAS the one who they were trying to cheat. WHY would I pay them $300 for a piece of art that was basically useless for what I needed it for when I could use that same amount of money to hire a full time artist (at around 42K a year, or something around $20 an hour) who would could put out the same or better quality at 2 or 3 pictures a day (which is $80 per picture at that amount per hour, or with benefits around $120 per picture), OR one ten times better in the style I wanted for a similar or lesser price when hired? Or if I did it on a per hire basis, once again, WHY should I pay them that amount to an unproven artist? Even more so, since I can do art myself, perhaps the bar should be they should at LEAST BE ABLE TO DO ART BETTER THAN I DO if they want to get paid, OR expect similar payments to what I get. Now, if I were starting out, and didn't have the funds, I MIGHT offer to share profits with the artist. It would DEPEND ON HOW MUCH TIME was spent in their art and what quality it was. IF I spend 500 hours writing and editing a book, but they spend 80 hours illustrating...what is a decent percentage to split with them. In that light I'd say a 20/80 split simply due to time investment. Of course, that is risky to the artist. If they get a bad seller that return may be zero dollars, or even in the negatives. If they are REALLY lucky they might make a small profit of less than $100 (which equates to less than $2 an hour). OR, if they hit the bonsai they may actually do well...but it is rare. AS has been alluded to, stock art is a good option IF you know you are good and are just starting out, or various other avenues. Getting an AGENT that works with publishers is probably a better idea. They have an idea of just how good an artist really may be and whether they are worth their weight or not. In addition, it SAVES publishers and writers TIME as they do not have to waste it with hack artists who think they are underpaid when in reality they have just self inflated their own egos on how good an artist they really are. That does not mean I think that an artist should roll over and accept anything that is given them, and DEFINATELY NOT just do art for exposure. The same would apply to a writer a publisher. IF the writer is not a proven writer, WHY would you waste your art on them without something at least compensatory. A writer should not expect an artist to spend $50 on art supplies, a dozen hours or more on an art piece and then get paid shillings on the pence just for the opportunity to get their artwork out there. Depending on the type of artwork needed, let's take an illustrator that works at a decent rate of at least four pieces a day, or for a full cover type illustration, at a maximum a week (normally a LOT less, we are being very lenient in some ways). For a beginning artist, we'll say they get above minimum wage and give them $15 an hour. That means for a quicker piece of art, even if we say only two a day, you could expect an offer somewhere between $60 and $100...and that is around what I might expect for it. If it is really something done quick, then if it takes less than an hour to do, $15 is NOT unreasonable. Something that takes longer, let's say a weeks worth, should be around $600 at that rate. If it takes you longer than that, perhaps you should rethink how you compare to other working artists. This is a beginning artist. You are NOT at the top of the food chain. You are NOT proven yet, and to expect to be paid MORE than full time employed artists is pure arrogance. I see this a LOT with artists just getting out there. They want you to pay $1000 for a commission on junk that is unproven. This is harsh, but AFTER one pays their dues (meaning they work their way upwards in recognition, background, etc) should they expect top tier pay for their work. However, someone who wants to do illustration (as opposed to other forms of artwork) should realize that many publishers already have their stock standard employee/contractor artists already set. These people are NOT looking to pay someone MORE than they would those they already work with. Normally they are not even WILLING to cut their trusted illustrators for someone else (and doing so causes bad faith). If they DO start handing out artwork requests it is because there is more art they need than their normals can handle, and in that instance they are probably going to want to pay LESS overall then their current group is paid. I do NOT advocate anyone asking to be paid in pennies or simply for exposure. If it is a startup type thing, then asking for a percentage of the profits is reasonable (in my estimation) if the thought is that pricing is too expensive. However, I also think that asking hundreds of dollars for a piece of art when someone is new to the industry, unless it is a bigger piece, is one of the MAJOR problems a LOT of starting artists make today. They think they are the next big thing, and they should be paid as such, when in reality no one wants to pay them those types of amounts except the truly desperate and those who do not know any better. Reasonable pricing should be looked at, how much time it costs the artist and how much materials they spend. No one should be charging $25 for a quick sketch that takes them less then 15 minutes when they are low or mid tier...though if they want to try their luck at carnival/fair caricatures and charging that...go for it. (most art is not seeking caricature type art work). On the otherhand, even a starting artist should not expect anything less than $50 for a day's worth of work, or even $80 if it takes them a day to do something. One should be paid at LEAST a minimum. Of course, the other thing to realize is HOW FAST you can work with an effective ability. Illustrators at times are given deadlines and expectations in regards to how fast they can work and how much. Some of the top illustrators out there that I'm aware of are NOT the best artist (believe it or not). They are relatively good artists that can work quickly. Time can be money. There are many different scales out there on how much out there. On an average I would say around $20 an hour is a good level to base the amount of money you charge once you are not just at the basic level of a nobody. IF YOU DO GET REALLY well known, charging $1000+ per picture is not unknown, especially if you are illustrating a book (and then you could get anywhere from 15K to 50K depending on the book). Expecting that right out of the gate though, I think that's a crazy notion that FAR too many beginning artists expect these days and it ends up biting them rather than helping them. (and vice versa, too many starting artist devalue what they do too much and think that they will work for exposure on unproven projects. Sure, it can work out once in a while, but there are far too many failed projects for me to really think that is a good idea either). For self-publishing, I'm a cheapskate typically and either do the art myself or con someone I know to illustrate it if their style matches what I am looking for. A more recent RPG project I did (well, in the past few years, so a few years ago) it was basically a trade. I did some uncredited writing for them (which was probably valued around 15-20K) in return for a few of their illustrations (some of which I liked, some which I didn't, but used anyways). That is an example of unpaid work (in theory) but it was NOT uncompensated (I did a LOT of work prior to that in trade for the artwork I received in return). Even then, I LET THEM RETAIN the rights to their artwork. That's the other sham I see a lot of. Many self-published writers want to OWN someone else's artwork. If they WANT to OWN the rights, that SHOULD cost them a little more money (IN MY OPINION) than the normal going rate...UNLESS it is going to lead to permanent employment or continuing contracts with a company (in which case, no slack should be given on normal pay for the artwork). Just my two coppers on the entire What an Artist is worth scenario. [/QUOTE]
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