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Sexism in Table-Top Gaming: My Thoughts On It, and What We Can Do About It
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<blockquote data-quote="mythago" data-source="post: 6207686" data-attributes="member: 3019"><p>At the risk of sounding Super Unhelpful, I didn't have either as a specific 'model' in mind, both because sexism in tabletop gaming is broader than those two models and because specific subsets of sexism, e.g. "Fake Geek Girl" policing, include behavior not described in either model. </p><p></p><p>Addressing only the second model you describe (given that I doubt we disagree at all on the first), it's true that the second model is more ambiguous, and it's true that it is more nuanced; sexism can be blatant, it can be unconscious or clueless. Where I would respectfully disagree is with your putting yourself into the shoes of the woman being given the Trivia Quiz treatment. First, as you've said, you personally have a particular point of view where you are <em>extremely</em> reluctant to label behavior as sexist unless it is very blatant, as in your first model, and you are very inclined to give the benefit of the doubt. You decry people who see everything through the lens of -isms, but most people, I submit, do not fall into one extreme or the other. Second, your model does not consider that this may be far from the first time that the gamer in question has run into this scenario, or others like it. So the problem is not just "this one time, this thing happened", but a pattern. If a female gamer only runs into Bob the Jerk one time out of ten while gaming, or attending cons, that may not sound too bad; it's a minority of jerks, right? But that still means that ten percent of her interactions are having to divert energy to this nonsense - energy she wouldn't have to spend but for the fact of being female.</p><p></p><p>And, at the risk of being a broken record, issues of sexism go well beyond Fake Geek Girl policing. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>In fact, <a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?346842-Sexism-in-Table-Top-Gaming-My-Thoughts-On-It-and-What-We-Can-Do-About-It&p=6204257&viewfull=1#post6204257" target="_blank">you have accused me of arguing dishonestly</a>, stating that I refuse to acknowledge arguments that I "don't apparently want to hear", that I am falsely claiming moral authority, that I dismissed your arguments because of your gender, and that I am anti-free-speech. I'm happy to have a respectful discussion, even if we disagree, but you're right: there's probably not much use in continuing a conversation where you angrily accuse me of dishonest and vile tactics, and then accuse me of lying about your having done so. As I've said repeatedly, I don't think you are doing this on purpose. But I would ask that you carefully consider what you've said and whether "you're in denial, you man-hating liar" is the best way to advance your point.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>That was sloppy and inaccurate on my part, and you are quite right to call me on it. What I was referring to is your comment, linked above, in which you appeared to suggest that people talking about sexism in tabletop gaming were trying to brainwash your daughters with their sexism-paranoid feminism. To be accurate, what I should have said is that in the context of this discussion, nobody <em>here</em>, to my knowledge, is insisting that your daughters accept a particular political or social philosophy. As a parent myself, I am all too familiar with the problem of people trying to shove their own gender anxieties and fetishes onto other people's children.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="mythago, post: 6207686, member: 3019"] At the risk of sounding Super Unhelpful, I didn't have either as a specific 'model' in mind, both because sexism in tabletop gaming is broader than those two models and because specific subsets of sexism, e.g. "Fake Geek Girl" policing, include behavior not described in either model. Addressing only the second model you describe (given that I doubt we disagree at all on the first), it's true that the second model is more ambiguous, and it's true that it is more nuanced; sexism can be blatant, it can be unconscious or clueless. Where I would respectfully disagree is with your putting yourself into the shoes of the woman being given the Trivia Quiz treatment. First, as you've said, you personally have a particular point of view where you are [I]extremely[/I] reluctant to label behavior as sexist unless it is very blatant, as in your first model, and you are very inclined to give the benefit of the doubt. You decry people who see everything through the lens of -isms, but most people, I submit, do not fall into one extreme or the other. Second, your model does not consider that this may be far from the first time that the gamer in question has run into this scenario, or others like it. So the problem is not just "this one time, this thing happened", but a pattern. If a female gamer only runs into Bob the Jerk one time out of ten while gaming, or attending cons, that may not sound too bad; it's a minority of jerks, right? But that still means that ten percent of her interactions are having to divert energy to this nonsense - energy she wouldn't have to spend but for the fact of being female. And, at the risk of being a broken record, issues of sexism go well beyond Fake Geek Girl policing. In fact, [URL="http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?346842-Sexism-in-Table-Top-Gaming-My-Thoughts-On-It-and-What-We-Can-Do-About-It&p=6204257&viewfull=1#post6204257"]you have accused me of arguing dishonestly[/URL], stating that I refuse to acknowledge arguments that I "don't apparently want to hear", that I am falsely claiming moral authority, that I dismissed your arguments because of your gender, and that I am anti-free-speech. I'm happy to have a respectful discussion, even if we disagree, but you're right: there's probably not much use in continuing a conversation where you angrily accuse me of dishonest and vile tactics, and then accuse me of lying about your having done so. As I've said repeatedly, I don't think you are doing this on purpose. But I would ask that you carefully consider what you've said and whether "you're in denial, you man-hating liar" is the best way to advance your point. That was sloppy and inaccurate on my part, and you are quite right to call me on it. What I was referring to is your comment, linked above, in which you appeared to suggest that people talking about sexism in tabletop gaming were trying to brainwash your daughters with their sexism-paranoid feminism. To be accurate, what I should have said is that in the context of this discussion, nobody [I]here[/I], to my knowledge, is insisting that your daughters accept a particular political or social philosophy. As a parent myself, I am all too familiar with the problem of people trying to shove their own gender anxieties and fetishes onto other people's children. [/QUOTE]
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