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<blockquote data-quote="FitzTheRuke" data-source="post: 8796259" data-attributes="member: 59816"><p>Yes, I understood that. Your argument makes sense. The trouble is, they made this change because of all the situations on the <em>other side</em> where Help only makes sense if the helper knows what they're doing. I'm sure you or I (or someone else) could come up with as many (if not more) scenarios where that would be true as you managed to do here for your case.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I think it <em>was</em>. I think it's "use this rule unless it doesn't make sense, then make a ruling".</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I guess we're faced with two problems:</p><p></p><p>1) Sometimes it makes sense that any second pair of hands will help.</p><p>2) Sometimes it only makes sense that a skilled person could help.</p><p></p><p>Which is more common? I guess it depends on playstyle, a bit, and also on how helpful you want the Help Action to be. With the changes to Guidance, it seems like they might be trying to make additional bonusses (like extra d4's and Advantage) a little rarer than they can be in a lot of games. Perhaps full-on advantage for Help is a little much for just an extra pair of hands. Perhaps it's not so much that the extra hands don't help narratively (even if they don't help mechanically) but that they don't help <em>enough to grant *advantage</em> (a big bonus).</p><p></p><p>So what to do? This is a problem with the entire skill system, as there's not a lot of guidance on when "trained only" checks are important over untrained, and exactly how much you can accomplish without tools (for example, with the playtest, if Lockpicking is a Sleight-of-Hand check, and Thieves' Tools give you Advantage on that check, what does that mean if you *don't have any thieves' tools? Can you pick a lock? Obviously that's silly, but will a dagger do? A toothpick? Where is the line?)</p><p></p><p>I'm not sure which is better, myself. The playtest way, or the "old" way. Both result in scenarios that need DM rulings. Which one would be more common? My gut says the Playtest would cover more ground at my table, but you've made a good case for the old version. Perhaps they can come up with some sort of hybrid, but I can't imagine it would make for <em>less</em> DM rulings - but maybe it could make for better guidance for a DM.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>No worries! It's tough communicating by text.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="FitzTheRuke, post: 8796259, member: 59816"] Yes, I understood that. Your argument makes sense. The trouble is, they made this change because of all the situations on the [I]other side[/I] where Help only makes sense if the helper knows what they're doing. I'm sure you or I (or someone else) could come up with as many (if not more) scenarios where that would be true as you managed to do here for your case. I think it [I]was[/I]. I think it's "use this rule unless it doesn't make sense, then make a ruling". I guess we're faced with two problems: 1) Sometimes it makes sense that any second pair of hands will help. 2) Sometimes it only makes sense that a skilled person could help. Which is more common? I guess it depends on playstyle, a bit, and also on how helpful you want the Help Action to be. With the changes to Guidance, it seems like they might be trying to make additional bonusses (like extra d4's and Advantage) a little rarer than they can be in a lot of games. Perhaps full-on advantage for Help is a little much for just an extra pair of hands. Perhaps it's not so much that the extra hands don't help narratively (even if they don't help mechanically) but that they don't help [I]enough to grant *advantage[/I] (a big bonus). So what to do? This is a problem with the entire skill system, as there's not a lot of guidance on when "trained only" checks are important over untrained, and exactly how much you can accomplish without tools (for example, with the playtest, if Lockpicking is a Sleight-of-Hand check, and Thieves' Tools give you Advantage on that check, what does that mean if you *don't have any thieves' tools? Can you pick a lock? Obviously that's silly, but will a dagger do? A toothpick? Where is the line?) I'm not sure which is better, myself. The playtest way, or the "old" way. Both result in scenarios that need DM rulings. Which one would be more common? My gut says the Playtest would cover more ground at my table, but you've made a good case for the old version. Perhaps they can come up with some sort of hybrid, but I can't imagine it would make for [I]less[/I] DM rulings - but maybe it could make for better guidance for a DM. No worries! It's tough communicating by text. [/QUOTE]
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