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General Tabletop Discussion
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
Skill Challenges: How Much Have They Improved?
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<blockquote data-quote="LostSoul" data-source="post: 5198875" data-attributes="member: 386"><p>Those are good thoughts, Firelance. Half of my post was to say that, hey look, there isn't any system for making skill checks in 4E.</p><p></p><p>For example, I could easy see a group going with having a player state "I make a Diplomacy check" as their system for determining when a skill check is made.</p><p></p><p>Anyway, let's look deeper... and ask a lot of stupid questions to reveal things that are implicit to us old hands but can confuse people.</p><p></p><p>When to call for a skill check:</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>What I get from this is "The players describe the actions of their characters; if success is ever in doubt, the DM calls for a skill check."</p><p></p><p>Question: How does success tie into the action? Let's say I state my action: "I tell the guard to get lost." What is "success" in this case?</p><p></p><p>Question the Second: What happens in a skill challenge if the success of the declared action is not in doubt? Does it add into success or failures? What if the declared action resolves the skill challenge?</p><p></p><p>How to pick the skill and who decides what skill is picked:</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>"The DM decides what skill is rolled to make the check. The DM should have a general sense of the skills that would be useful, and allow plausible courses of action."</p><p></p><p>Question: How does the DM decide what skills would be useful?</p><p></p><p>Question: How does this tie into the player's declared action? Does the player's declared action affect the DM's decision in any way? If so, how?</p><p></p><p>Outcomes:</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>"The DM determines what the result of the check means."</p><p></p><p>Question: How does the DM decide? Why would he make one decision over another?</p><p></p><p>Question: How does the player's stated action tie into this? Is the action resolved or not? If I declare an action that's in doubt, I make a successful check, do I carry out my action or not?</p><p></p><p>Question: How does the outcome of the declared action interact with the skill challenge's successes and failures? If I declare an action that requires a skill check - "I stab the Duke through the heart" - and succeed, does that count as a success in the skill challenge?</p><p></p><p>On modifiers:</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>"The DM decides if any modifiers should be applied to the roll."</p><p></p><p>Question: Why would the DM decide to apply a modifier to a skill check? What is the basis for his decision? Is it based on the situation in the game world, the enjoyment of the players, the difficulty he wants to impose on the players, the needs for the DM to see his pre-written story play out in the way he wants, because he likes Tom better than Jim, or what?</p><p></p><p>On DCs:</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>"The DM selects a DC for the check based on common task DCs or the level of the challenge."</p><p></p><p>Question: What would a DM pick an Easy DC over a Hard one? What is the difference between a Level 7 Easy DC and a Level 1 Moderate one?</p><p></p><p>Question: How does a DM decide what the level of the challenge should be?</p><p></p><p>Putting it all together now...</p><p></p><p>1. The players describe the actions of their characters; if success is ever in doubt, the DM calls for a skill check.</p><p>2. The DM decides what skill is rolled to make the check. The DM should have a general sense of the skills that would be useful, and allow plausible courses of action.</p><p>3. The DM determines what the result of the check means.</p><p>4. The DM decides if any modifiers should be applied to the roll.</p><p>5. The DM selects a DC for the check based on common task DCs or the level of the challenge.</p><p></p><p>I would say that this isn't enough information to play the game. We have the skeleton of a system here but people are going to have to dress it up in their own way. Which can be a feature, but since people are having problems...</p><p></p><p>It also needs to be tied into the skill challenge mechanics. There are some other questions there: why would you decide to run a skill challenge, why would you set the complexity to one level and not another, what happens when the skill challenge is (or is not) resolved, and how actions, skill checks, and the results of checks interact with the successes and failures needed in the skill challenge.</p><p></p><p>I don't believe these questions are ever answered in a procedural, "This is how you do it" way. I could be wrong, though.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="LostSoul, post: 5198875, member: 386"] Those are good thoughts, Firelance. Half of my post was to say that, hey look, there isn't any system for making skill checks in 4E. For example, I could easy see a group going with having a player state "I make a Diplomacy check" as their system for determining when a skill check is made. Anyway, let's look deeper... and ask a lot of stupid questions to reveal things that are implicit to us old hands but can confuse people. When to call for a skill check: What I get from this is "The players describe the actions of their characters; if success is ever in doubt, the DM calls for a skill check." Question: How does success tie into the action? Let's say I state my action: "I tell the guard to get lost." What is "success" in this case? Question the Second: What happens in a skill challenge if the success of the declared action is not in doubt? Does it add into success or failures? What if the declared action resolves the skill challenge? How to pick the skill and who decides what skill is picked: "The DM decides what skill is rolled to make the check. The DM should have a general sense of the skills that would be useful, and allow plausible courses of action." Question: How does the DM decide what skills would be useful? Question: How does this tie into the player's declared action? Does the player's declared action affect the DM's decision in any way? If so, how? Outcomes: "The DM determines what the result of the check means." Question: How does the DM decide? Why would he make one decision over another? Question: How does the player's stated action tie into this? Is the action resolved or not? If I declare an action that's in doubt, I make a successful check, do I carry out my action or not? Question: How does the outcome of the declared action interact with the skill challenge's successes and failures? If I declare an action that requires a skill check - "I stab the Duke through the heart" - and succeed, does that count as a success in the skill challenge? On modifiers: "The DM decides if any modifiers should be applied to the roll." Question: Why would the DM decide to apply a modifier to a skill check? What is the basis for his decision? Is it based on the situation in the game world, the enjoyment of the players, the difficulty he wants to impose on the players, the needs for the DM to see his pre-written story play out in the way he wants, because he likes Tom better than Jim, or what? On DCs: "The DM selects a DC for the check based on common task DCs or the level of the challenge." Question: What would a DM pick an Easy DC over a Hard one? What is the difference between a Level 7 Easy DC and a Level 1 Moderate one? Question: How does a DM decide what the level of the challenge should be? Putting it all together now... 1. The players describe the actions of their characters; if success is ever in doubt, the DM calls for a skill check. 2. The DM decides what skill is rolled to make the check. The DM should have a general sense of the skills that would be useful, and allow plausible courses of action. 3. The DM determines what the result of the check means. 4. The DM decides if any modifiers should be applied to the roll. 5. The DM selects a DC for the check based on common task DCs or the level of the challenge. I would say that this isn't enough information to play the game. We have the skeleton of a system here but people are going to have to dress it up in their own way. Which can be a feature, but since people are having problems... It also needs to be tied into the skill challenge mechanics. There are some other questions there: why would you decide to run a skill challenge, why would you set the complexity to one level and not another, what happens when the skill challenge is (or is not) resolved, and how actions, skill checks, and the results of checks interact with the successes and failures needed in the skill challenge. I don't believe these questions are ever answered in a procedural, "This is how you do it" way. I could be wrong, though. [/QUOTE]
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