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General Tabletop Discussion
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
Skill Challenges: How Much Have They Improved?
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<blockquote data-quote="LostSoul" data-source="post: 5199344" data-attributes="member: 386"><p>Thanks Firelance, this is good stuff!</p><p></p><p>I am writing a hack and I've left skill challenges alone for now, and this discussion is going to help me put together a system for them.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>The reason why I bring this that I'm wondering how this interacts with skill challenges. If you want to get past the guard to get into the spice den so you can murder a smuggler and his shifter companion, resolving the single action or task in that manner will resolve the entire skill challenge - and that's something we don't want.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I agree with that. I would make this explicit in the system.</p><p></p><p>Question: How would resolving a skill challenge "before its time" (i.e. before the set number of successes and failures are met) affect the amount of XP rewarded? (pemerton had an idea about handing out XP based on the number of successes accrued. That seems like a good way to handle it.)</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I'm not sure about having a solution in mind. There are the usually pre-plotting dangers associated with having a solution in mind; however, if the skill challenge deals with a trap and a specific gear in the trap needs to be jammed, that makes sense. The same thing goes with a dialogue with an NPC: the DM might know that the guard will leave if he's given a decent bribe (and is convinced the PCs aren't cops).</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>It'd be interesting to see the differences in play between those two systems.</p><p></p><p>"The player describes the PC's action and declares which skill is being used. The DM may change the skill used if he feels it is not appropriate."</p><p>vs.</p><p>"The player describes the PC's action and the DM determines which skill is being used."</p><p></p><p>I would go with the second because I think you won't see as much "narrative acrobatics".</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>There are a number of ways to decide it, and I think it would be good to say, "Here are some ways to decide what happens; pick one that fits with your game and stick to it." Here are some:</p><p></p><p>Outcomes are based on...</p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">the logical outcome of the action.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">genre tropes.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">the needs of the DM's pre-plotted story.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">the difficulty the PCs have faced up to this point. (That is, if the PCs have been having an easy time of things up to this point, the outcome is not as good for them, and it's better for them if they've been struggling.)</li> </ul><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Agreed on skill checks.</p><p></p><p>It becomes interesting when you're talking about skill challenges. How do you determine the goal? Who decides? Can players initiate their own challenges, stating the goal for themselves? Do both sides on the skill challenge (the PCs and the opposition) get stated goals?</p><p></p><p>Then there's the question of a changing situation in response to the actions taken. If the goal is stated explicitly before we engage with the actions of the PCs, how much room for surprise does that leave us?</p><p></p><p>One of the goals in skill challenges - for me - is to enter the skill challenge without having any idea of the final state of the in-game situation. How does one achieve that if the goal is stated explicitly? </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I think this goes along with the need for an explicit goal - even if the players are not aware of it, the DM must be.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Agreed.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Agreed. I think there should be some mention of why the DM selects a certain level over another one - why 7th instead of 1st?</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I think what would help are clear and specific procedures that one follows, while leaving enough space open for DMs and players to add their own creative input. I think it's possible; other games achieve this goal, so why not D&D?</p><p></p><p>(One interesting question that we haven't discussed is how skill challenges affect other character components - what is the relationship between skill challenges and healing surges? hit points? attack modifiers? Ideally the outcome of a skill challenge should be reflected on the character sheet... but that's a lot to ask for now.)</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="LostSoul, post: 5199344, member: 386"] Thanks Firelance, this is good stuff! I am writing a hack and I've left skill challenges alone for now, and this discussion is going to help me put together a system for them. The reason why I bring this that I'm wondering how this interacts with skill challenges. If you want to get past the guard to get into the spice den so you can murder a smuggler and his shifter companion, resolving the single action or task in that manner will resolve the entire skill challenge - and that's something we don't want. I agree with that. I would make this explicit in the system. Question: How would resolving a skill challenge "before its time" (i.e. before the set number of successes and failures are met) affect the amount of XP rewarded? (pemerton had an idea about handing out XP based on the number of successes accrued. That seems like a good way to handle it.) I'm not sure about having a solution in mind. There are the usually pre-plotting dangers associated with having a solution in mind; however, if the skill challenge deals with a trap and a specific gear in the trap needs to be jammed, that makes sense. The same thing goes with a dialogue with an NPC: the DM might know that the guard will leave if he's given a decent bribe (and is convinced the PCs aren't cops). It'd be interesting to see the differences in play between those two systems. "The player describes the PC's action and declares which skill is being used. The DM may change the skill used if he feels it is not appropriate." vs. "The player describes the PC's action and the DM determines which skill is being used." I would go with the second because I think you won't see as much "narrative acrobatics". There are a number of ways to decide it, and I think it would be good to say, "Here are some ways to decide what happens; pick one that fits with your game and stick to it." Here are some: Outcomes are based on... [list][*]the logical outcome of the action. [*]genre tropes. [*]the needs of the DM's pre-plotted story. [*]the difficulty the PCs have faced up to this point. (That is, if the PCs have been having an easy time of things up to this point, the outcome is not as good for them, and it's better for them if they've been struggling.)[/list] Agreed on skill checks. It becomes interesting when you're talking about skill challenges. How do you determine the goal? Who decides? Can players initiate their own challenges, stating the goal for themselves? Do both sides on the skill challenge (the PCs and the opposition) get stated goals? Then there's the question of a changing situation in response to the actions taken. If the goal is stated explicitly before we engage with the actions of the PCs, how much room for surprise does that leave us? One of the goals in skill challenges - for me - is to enter the skill challenge without having any idea of the final state of the in-game situation. How does one achieve that if the goal is stated explicitly? I think this goes along with the need for an explicit goal - even if the players are not aware of it, the DM must be. Agreed. Agreed. I think there should be some mention of why the DM selects a certain level over another one - why 7th instead of 1st? I think what would help are clear and specific procedures that one follows, while leaving enough space open for DMs and players to add their own creative input. I think it's possible; other games achieve this goal, so why not D&D? (One interesting question that we haven't discussed is how skill challenges affect other character components - what is the relationship between skill challenges and healing surges? hit points? attack modifiers? Ideally the outcome of a skill challenge should be reflected on the character sheet... but that's a lot to ask for now.) [/QUOTE]
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