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<blockquote data-quote="Guest 6801328" data-source="post: 7533816"><p>As I said on the previous page, in that first case (negating the power of the player's choices when making his character) it's kind of mean, but it's not actually affecting player agency. Player agency is a matter of controlling what your character thinks and what actions he takes, not how successful he is at those actions.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Yeah, I agree. It's why I never require my players to actually come up with persuasive arguments, let alone voice act them, if they don't want to. And if they try, I don't try to judge the quality and have that result in modifiers. Because that would be ME being persuaded, not the NPC. And I don't want to have to roleplay all my NPCs because I would let my own biases get in the way. So I use dice to tell me what the NPCs do.</p><p></p><p>Still, none of that has anything to do with player agency.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>By definition a skill check requires a roll. That's what it is.</p><p></p><p>But a player saying "I'm going to try to persuade the NPC" or "I'm going to try to swim the river" or "I will try to identify that herb" are not making skill checks. They are declaring actions. The DM might, if he/she thinks the outcome is uncertain, ask for a skill check.</p><p></p><p>Likewise, if a player says, "I want to persuade the (player character) Barbarian to hand over all his gold" the correct response from the DM is, "Go ahead." In this case no dice are needed because the Barbarian's player can decide for himself what is persuasive and what isn't. </p><p></p><p>Now, <em>that player</em> might decide the outcome is uncertain and say, "Gimme a roll." But that's totally up to him/her. No, that's not in the rules, but the player is free to use whatever criteria they want. The might flip a coin for themselves. Or use a Magic 8 ball. Or just simply decide, "There's no way my character would be persuaded of that without magic being used."</p><p></p><p>But to have somebody else say, "The Face is going to roll and you have to abide by the results" would be akin to telling the DM, "I'm going to make a Persuasion roll and if I succeed the King has to open his treasury for me. Don't worry, I'll give myself a high DC." Nuh-uh.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Guest 6801328, post: 7533816"] As I said on the previous page, in that first case (negating the power of the player's choices when making his character) it's kind of mean, but it's not actually affecting player agency. Player agency is a matter of controlling what your character thinks and what actions he takes, not how successful he is at those actions. Yeah, I agree. It's why I never require my players to actually come up with persuasive arguments, let alone voice act them, if they don't want to. And if they try, I don't try to judge the quality and have that result in modifiers. Because that would be ME being persuaded, not the NPC. And I don't want to have to roleplay all my NPCs because I would let my own biases get in the way. So I use dice to tell me what the NPCs do. Still, none of that has anything to do with player agency. By definition a skill check requires a roll. That's what it is. But a player saying "I'm going to try to persuade the NPC" or "I'm going to try to swim the river" or "I will try to identify that herb" are not making skill checks. They are declaring actions. The DM might, if he/she thinks the outcome is uncertain, ask for a skill check. Likewise, if a player says, "I want to persuade the (player character) Barbarian to hand over all his gold" the correct response from the DM is, "Go ahead." In this case no dice are needed because the Barbarian's player can decide for himself what is persuasive and what isn't. Now, [I]that player[/I] might decide the outcome is uncertain and say, "Gimme a roll." But that's totally up to him/her. No, that's not in the rules, but the player is free to use whatever criteria they want. The might flip a coin for themselves. Or use a Magic 8 ball. Or just simply decide, "There's no way my character would be persuaded of that without magic being used." But to have somebody else say, "The Face is going to roll and you have to abide by the results" would be akin to telling the DM, "I'm going to make a Persuasion roll and if I succeed the King has to open his treasury for me. Don't worry, I'll give myself a high DC." Nuh-uh. [/QUOTE]
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