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<blockquote data-quote="Blue" data-source="post: 7534266" data-attributes="member: 20564"><p>The DM never gets to tell the player how to run his character. Well, Session 0 might have "no evil characters" as part of the agreed on social contract, but that's not what we're talking about here. The Barbarian is free to act as they want.</p><p></p><p>I think your whole example is the DM attempting to dictate what the character does. Heck, that's against the rules in the very beginning of the PHB, page 6: How to play. The DM describes the environment, the players describe what they want to do, the DM narrates the results of the actions. None of it is the DM controls the PC.</p><p></p><p>So, outside DMs doing things that the rules don't allow and the table definitely shouldn't allow, let me try an example that could happen at my table.</p><p></p><p>Setting: AL table, not all players are there all the time, some vary by week, and factions with secret agendas is a known thing. Alice's rogue is a member of the Zhents, which have criminal ties.</p><p></p><p>DM: Alice, your rogue recognizes the Zhentish tattoos on the gang leader as they flee.</p><p>Alice: Oh, I need to make sure they get away. My rogue says "We shouldn't follow then, they're probably just hired thugs."</p><p>DM: Alice, with the tattoos you're sure that's not true. Can you make a deception check for your rogue?</p><p>Alice: 9, plus 2 for CHR and 3 for proficiency since I'm trained ...14</p><p>DM: Bob, your cleric with the Observant feat has a higher passive insight. He catches some hint that the rogue isn't telling the truth, the whole truth, so help her Helm.</p><p>DM (again): What does everyone do?</p><p>Charlene: My barbarian chases the thugs anyhow. Her blood is up and she's still spoiling for a fight.</p><p>...</p><p></p><p>See, the roll isn't used to control characters, it's used to empower them by giving them the information they get for existing in the world. Part of that "how to play", with the DM describing. This is based to some degree on how the players have intended their characters to be in terms of building them. For example, if you are in the dark you'll get a different description if yur character has darkvision. Alice's rogue had a good result, part of her putting a 14-15 in CHR and taking training in deception. Bob, with a high wisdom cleric who definitely wants to notice things that they invested a feat in Observant however is better in this case - needed better than that 9.</p><p></p><p>In no ways does the DM tell the players their actions. We don't know if Bob will have his cleric say something, pursue, stop others pursuing because he trusts Alice's rogue, or what. Charlene's barbarian is free to pursue the thugs or not, with or without a reason.</p><p></p><p>All we have done is give the players the information their characters would be able to notice living in the world. That one player put a premium on noticing things, paying an opportunity cost of not taking a different ASI/feat, means that there are times they get more information. </p><p></p><p>Just like a character who took a language gets to understand it when another character might not. If one character writes a message openly in elvish and shows the party, they don't get to control which of the other PCs know elvish and can read it.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Blue, post: 7534266, member: 20564"] The DM never gets to tell the player how to run his character. Well, Session 0 might have "no evil characters" as part of the agreed on social contract, but that's not what we're talking about here. The Barbarian is free to act as they want. I think your whole example is the DM attempting to dictate what the character does. Heck, that's against the rules in the very beginning of the PHB, page 6: How to play. The DM describes the environment, the players describe what they want to do, the DM narrates the results of the actions. None of it is the DM controls the PC. So, outside DMs doing things that the rules don't allow and the table definitely shouldn't allow, let me try an example that could happen at my table. Setting: AL table, not all players are there all the time, some vary by week, and factions with secret agendas is a known thing. Alice's rogue is a member of the Zhents, which have criminal ties. DM: Alice, your rogue recognizes the Zhentish tattoos on the gang leader as they flee. Alice: Oh, I need to make sure they get away. My rogue says "We shouldn't follow then, they're probably just hired thugs." DM: Alice, with the tattoos you're sure that's not true. Can you make a deception check for your rogue? Alice: 9, plus 2 for CHR and 3 for proficiency since I'm trained ...14 DM: Bob, your cleric with the Observant feat has a higher passive insight. He catches some hint that the rogue isn't telling the truth, the whole truth, so help her Helm. DM (again): What does everyone do? Charlene: My barbarian chases the thugs anyhow. Her blood is up and she's still spoiling for a fight. ... See, the roll isn't used to control characters, it's used to empower them by giving them the information they get for existing in the world. Part of that "how to play", with the DM describing. This is based to some degree on how the players have intended their characters to be in terms of building them. For example, if you are in the dark you'll get a different description if yur character has darkvision. Alice's rogue had a good result, part of her putting a 14-15 in CHR and taking training in deception. Bob, with a high wisdom cleric who definitely wants to notice things that they invested a feat in Observant however is better in this case - needed better than that 9. In no ways does the DM tell the players their actions. We don't know if Bob will have his cleric say something, pursue, stop others pursuing because he trusts Alice's rogue, or what. Charlene's barbarian is free to pursue the thugs or not, with or without a reason. All we have done is give the players the information their characters would be able to notice living in the world. That one player put a premium on noticing things, paying an opportunity cost of not taking a different ASI/feat, means that there are times they get more information. Just like a character who took a language gets to understand it when another character might not. If one character writes a message openly in elvish and shows the party, they don't get to control which of the other PCs know elvish and can read it. [/QUOTE]
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