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<blockquote data-quote="Ovinomancer" data-source="post: 7535538" data-attributes="member: 16814"><p>But, you just described limiting the player options just as I said happens. The PC reaction cannot be "whatever, I ignore them and do what I want." This differs from being grappled, say, where the PC could still say that and attempt to walk away only to fail automatically. This is saying that the PC cannot even contemplate such actions and the player is so constrained in action declarations.</p><p></p><p>That said, it's not horrible that you do so. I disagree, but I don't play at your table. Again, I'm going to make the strongest points possible, as I did when I played almost exactly like you (I distinctly recall making the argument above almost verbatim). </p><p></p><p>I discovered that, for me and my table at least, the game git better when I stopped trying to police my PCs. I found I was running NPC persuasion as a plot device to chivvy around my players. Effectively, it was pretty blatant use of DM force. So, I've stopped. If the players don't believe the NPC or aren't persuaded, great! The story will now move in that direction. I don't need to force the players because I don't have a preset story that needs to happen. This isn't to say that not agreeing can't have horrible consequences, but those will at least be the choice of the players, not me.</p><p></p><p>Letting go of the reigns was hard. I'd never played otherwise. I enjoy it more, now. I hardily recommend playing one of the PbtA games -- Dungeon World, Apocalypse World, Blades in the Dark (my choice of poison); the very different play while still dealing with familiar tropes is eye-opening for what's possible. 5e does not lend itself to the same play as PbtA -- the systems incentivize differently -- but some of the core play guidelines do cross over: hold on lightly -- be willing to change your plans easily; be a fan of the PCs -- be happy when the PCs succeed, enjoy their foiables; bring the pain -- put the PCs in hard places, up the ante, put the things the PCs love in peril. These translate pretty well.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Ovinomancer, post: 7535538, member: 16814"] But, you just described limiting the player options just as I said happens. The PC reaction cannot be "whatever, I ignore them and do what I want." This differs from being grappled, say, where the PC could still say that and attempt to walk away only to fail automatically. This is saying that the PC cannot even contemplate such actions and the player is so constrained in action declarations. That said, it's not horrible that you do so. I disagree, but I don't play at your table. Again, I'm going to make the strongest points possible, as I did when I played almost exactly like you (I distinctly recall making the argument above almost verbatim). I discovered that, for me and my table at least, the game git better when I stopped trying to police my PCs. I found I was running NPC persuasion as a plot device to chivvy around my players. Effectively, it was pretty blatant use of DM force. So, I've stopped. If the players don't believe the NPC or aren't persuaded, great! The story will now move in that direction. I don't need to force the players because I don't have a preset story that needs to happen. This isn't to say that not agreeing can't have horrible consequences, but those will at least be the choice of the players, not me. Letting go of the reigns was hard. I'd never played otherwise. I enjoy it more, now. I hardily recommend playing one of the PbtA games -- Dungeon World, Apocalypse World, Blades in the Dark (my choice of poison); the very different play while still dealing with familiar tropes is eye-opening for what's possible. 5e does not lend itself to the same play as PbtA -- the systems incentivize differently -- but some of the core play guidelines do cross over: hold on lightly -- be willing to change your plans easily; be a fan of the PCs -- be happy when the PCs succeed, enjoy their foiables; bring the pain -- put the PCs in hard places, up the ante, put the things the PCs love in peril. These translate pretty well. [/QUOTE]
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