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General Tabletop Discussion
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
So, about defenses aka. PHB2 defenses feats
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<blockquote data-quote="Elric" data-source="post: 4740115" data-attributes="member: 1139"><p>Your weak FRW defense gets much worse over time losing 7 points over 29 levels, with your stronger two FRW defenses (assuming you spread ability boosts to 2 stats that boost different saves) losing 4, just like to hit. In general, losing FRW is more bearable than to-hit in that a large proportion of attacks go against AC, but pre-PH II losing 7 points on your weakest FRW puts you at "often get hit on a 2+, even if you took the appropriate Great Fortitude type feat." </p><p></p><p>Another thing that's not mentioned as much in these discussions is that your FRW defenses tend to be easier for monsters to hit than AC from the get-go. This is because monsters average about 1.5 less on attacks vs. FRW than vs. AC, (statistics from kerbarian's excellent thread, <a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-4th-edition-rules/229092-lots-statistics-monster-manual.html" target="_blank">here</a>), but AC tends to be 2-4 points higher than FRW for starting characters (sometimes even more- Plate and Shield Paladins, for example). </p><p></p><p>However, it doesn't seem like FRW attacks are weaker than AC attacks to compensate for being more accurate; FRW attacks inflict more status conditions, among other things. So having PCs lose that many points on non-AC defenses can be quite problematic against monsters with very strong FRW attacks (think Bodak Reavers). A further downside to PH II's fix is that it's almost entirely in the form of epic feats, so level 20 PCs are in just as much trouble against the Bodak Reavers as they were before, but then they get a major jump in power when they hit epic.</p><p></p><p>Karinsdad's house rule, which I think is very clever, was to give +1 to hit and to FRW defenses at levels 5/15/25, and to also change it so that at levels 4,8,14,18,24,28, characters get +1 to three ability scores, not two ability scores. </p><p></p><p>You could even give characters +1 to all defenses (as before, but include AC) at levels 5/15/25 instead, remove Masterwork Light Armors, scale down Masterwork Heavy Armors by 2 points of AC over 29 levels, and end up with all of a character's main attributes scaling at the same rate (with only the Masterwork Heavy Armor fix required as a specific kludge). </p><p></p><p>Then you can ban the PH II Expertise feats and most of the PH II FRW increasing feats as well, since they're not needed for the game to scale appropriately.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Elric, post: 4740115, member: 1139"] Your weak FRW defense gets much worse over time losing 7 points over 29 levels, with your stronger two FRW defenses (assuming you spread ability boosts to 2 stats that boost different saves) losing 4, just like to hit. In general, losing FRW is more bearable than to-hit in that a large proportion of attacks go against AC, but pre-PH II losing 7 points on your weakest FRW puts you at "often get hit on a 2+, even if you took the appropriate Great Fortitude type feat." Another thing that's not mentioned as much in these discussions is that your FRW defenses tend to be easier for monsters to hit than AC from the get-go. This is because monsters average about 1.5 less on attacks vs. FRW than vs. AC, (statistics from kerbarian's excellent thread, [url=http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-4th-edition-rules/229092-lots-statistics-monster-manual.html]here[/url]), but AC tends to be 2-4 points higher than FRW for starting characters (sometimes even more- Plate and Shield Paladins, for example). However, it doesn't seem like FRW attacks are weaker than AC attacks to compensate for being more accurate; FRW attacks inflict more status conditions, among other things. So having PCs lose that many points on non-AC defenses can be quite problematic against monsters with very strong FRW attacks (think Bodak Reavers). A further downside to PH II's fix is that it's almost entirely in the form of epic feats, so level 20 PCs are in just as much trouble against the Bodak Reavers as they were before, but then they get a major jump in power when they hit epic. Karinsdad's house rule, which I think is very clever, was to give +1 to hit and to FRW defenses at levels 5/15/25, and to also change it so that at levels 4,8,14,18,24,28, characters get +1 to three ability scores, not two ability scores. You could even give characters +1 to all defenses (as before, but include AC) at levels 5/15/25 instead, remove Masterwork Light Armors, scale down Masterwork Heavy Armors by 2 points of AC over 29 levels, and end up with all of a character's main attributes scaling at the same rate (with only the Masterwork Heavy Armor fix required as a specific kludge). Then you can ban the PH II Expertise feats and most of the PH II FRW increasing feats as well, since they're not needed for the game to scale appropriately. [/QUOTE]
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