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So, about defenses aka. PHB2 defenses feats
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<blockquote data-quote="AbdulAlhazred" data-source="post: 4740622" data-attributes="member: 82106"><p>I'm going to have to agree with Atanatotatos (does that rhyme with potatatoes? <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite2" alt=";)" title="Wink ;)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=";)" />. </p><p></p><p>IMHO you guys are thinking about the whole game the wrong way (and I don't mean to use 'wrong' to mean 'bad', just "wrong from my perspective"). Characters should be all about choice. 4e has already eaten away a LOT in terms of choices by the whole 'treadmill' approach to power. Players should be able to choose between high NADs, high AC, high to-hit, etc. You want to give them everything and make every character mathematically perfectly identical to every other one. Why not just make a rule that says "everyone has AC X F/R/W Y of N starting and it increases by M per level" and just make armor etc fluff? It seems to me that's basically what you're trying to do.</p><p></p><p>Instead just give the players control of their characters! If they want to spend all their feats on having high NADs then that is their choice. If they don't, then they can do other interesting things, like have better skills or some role-playing oriented feature added to their characters. You guys do remember role-playing don't you? lol. Sometimes I wonder! It is like some combat related number is the only thing that matters in the game anymore. Pick monsters and scale encounter difficulty to match the choices the players make instead of shoehorning them into a specific set of numbers just for the sake of the fact that it means they can take on a specific level of delve. If all your players want to do is fight, they WILL take the feats that will make them excell at that, and that is absolutely fine. If they don't, then they'll have a bit weaker defenses and need to pick and choose which fights to fight and which ones to RP their way through or around (which is usually more challenging overall).</p><p></p><p>I know I'm going to get a storm of "but you just don't understand, the numbers are broken" responses to this, complete with the specific example of such and such at thus and such level math and all the usual "feat taxes are evil". Meh. So it goes. I think all of that is missing the point. </p><p></p><p>Sure there is going to be a power discontinuity between level 20 and 21 and between 10 and 11 too, but that was pretty much baked into the game when they decided to use tiers for controlling access to feats and having PP and ED tack onto your character at a fixed level. Maybe it makes the game system slightly imperfect in some sense, but so what if the PCs will get toasted by bodaks and 20th and they can wipe the floor with them at 21st? Use that as a plot tool! Players are smart. They can read the books and do the math just as well as the DM can. If there is an issue where they may blunder in where they shouldn't go yet, then work some kind of 'test' into the structure of the adventure that will clue them to that or even push them onto a short side adventure to get the required XP. Or just work in a quest that triggers in the appropriate place and levels them up.</p><p></p><p>Also it is pretty easy to throw PCs a few 1 shot bonuses when needed. Terrain that buffs NADs (activated by solving a skill challenge or something maybe), etc. </p><p></p><p>Of course it is your game, and I don't really honestly mean this post to put down other people's points of view, just to point out that it isn't the only way to look at it by a long shot. Maybe people are too wrapped up in these numbers. The numbers should be your helpers, not something you have to wrestle with. Hope this perspective is at least interesting. Now, go on with your tweaking and have fun <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite2" alt=";)" title="Wink ;)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=";)" /></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="AbdulAlhazred, post: 4740622, member: 82106"] I'm going to have to agree with Atanatotatos (does that rhyme with potatatoes? ;). IMHO you guys are thinking about the whole game the wrong way (and I don't mean to use 'wrong' to mean 'bad', just "wrong from my perspective"). Characters should be all about choice. 4e has already eaten away a LOT in terms of choices by the whole 'treadmill' approach to power. Players should be able to choose between high NADs, high AC, high to-hit, etc. You want to give them everything and make every character mathematically perfectly identical to every other one. Why not just make a rule that says "everyone has AC X F/R/W Y of N starting and it increases by M per level" and just make armor etc fluff? It seems to me that's basically what you're trying to do. Instead just give the players control of their characters! If they want to spend all their feats on having high NADs then that is their choice. If they don't, then they can do other interesting things, like have better skills or some role-playing oriented feature added to their characters. You guys do remember role-playing don't you? lol. Sometimes I wonder! It is like some combat related number is the only thing that matters in the game anymore. Pick monsters and scale encounter difficulty to match the choices the players make instead of shoehorning them into a specific set of numbers just for the sake of the fact that it means they can take on a specific level of delve. If all your players want to do is fight, they WILL take the feats that will make them excell at that, and that is absolutely fine. If they don't, then they'll have a bit weaker defenses and need to pick and choose which fights to fight and which ones to RP their way through or around (which is usually more challenging overall). I know I'm going to get a storm of "but you just don't understand, the numbers are broken" responses to this, complete with the specific example of such and such at thus and such level math and all the usual "feat taxes are evil". Meh. So it goes. I think all of that is missing the point. Sure there is going to be a power discontinuity between level 20 and 21 and between 10 and 11 too, but that was pretty much baked into the game when they decided to use tiers for controlling access to feats and having PP and ED tack onto your character at a fixed level. Maybe it makes the game system slightly imperfect in some sense, but so what if the PCs will get toasted by bodaks and 20th and they can wipe the floor with them at 21st? Use that as a plot tool! Players are smart. They can read the books and do the math just as well as the DM can. If there is an issue where they may blunder in where they shouldn't go yet, then work some kind of 'test' into the structure of the adventure that will clue them to that or even push them onto a short side adventure to get the required XP. Or just work in a quest that triggers in the appropriate place and levels them up. Also it is pretty easy to throw PCs a few 1 shot bonuses when needed. Terrain that buffs NADs (activated by solving a skill challenge or something maybe), etc. Of course it is your game, and I don't really honestly mean this post to put down other people's points of view, just to point out that it isn't the only way to look at it by a long shot. Maybe people are too wrapped up in these numbers. The numbers should be your helpers, not something you have to wrestle with. Hope this perspective is at least interesting. Now, go on with your tweaking and have fun ;) [/QUOTE]
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