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So, about defenses aka. PHB2 defenses feats
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<blockquote data-quote="KarinsDad" data-source="post: 4740830" data-attributes="member: 2011"><p>There is a difference between "not challenging" and easy.</p><p></p><p>I think you are getting confused between the two. They sound similar, but are miles apart.</p><p></p><p>High level encounters are not necessarily challenging. The monsters hit for too little damage, they have too many hit points, and players have too many ways to help each other out.</p><p></p><p>So, the encounter is not challenging. It easily takes 20+ rounds to play as the players drudge through the mega hit points of the monsters.</p><p></p><p>But, no real challenge. Not easy, just time consuming and resource consuming.</p><p></p><p>It's obvious that very little (if any) Epic playtesting was done pre-release.</p><p></p><p>As an example. Take an encounter with 3 25th level Death Titans versus 5 25th level PCs. This is between an n and n+1 encounter XP-wise. The creatures are the exact same level as the PCs. It should be a walk in the park for 5 25th level PCs. Not easy, but pretty much typical.</p><p></p><p>The PCs have to eat through almost 2000 hit points of the monsters (including soul shards).</p><p></p><p>The monsters have to eat through <700 hit points (1000+ with heals) of the PCs.</p><p></p><p>The monsters hit the Legion plate and heavy shield specialized defender on a 12 (due to the aura). 45% of their normal attacks hit, so they average about 20+ points of damage per round against the defender, more against other PCs. Attacks versus AC are not a problem. At 60+ points of damage per round and healing surges, it takes the 3 monsters less than 20 rounds (maybe 18) to kill the PCs. Not including their Soul Devourer or Soul Burst powers.</p><p></p><p>The defender hits back on a 14.</p><p></p><p>The PCs each average maybe 35 to 40 points of damage with Encounter and Daily powers and have about 12 such powers (including items). But, these powers only hit about 50% of the time max (if that high, including synergies, the aura hampers melee PCs quite a bit). That's 1125 of the 2000 points they have to do and 12 rounds to do this damage.</p><p></p><p>The PCs each average maybe 25 points of damage with At Will powers. Again with a 50% chance to hit, it takes 14 more rounds to do this damage or a combined total of 26 rounds.</p><p></p><p>From this, it would seem like this is a lopsided fight strongly in favor of the monsters. But, although it takes the PCs more rounds to kill their foes straight up, their foes are often stunned or slowed or immobilized or dazed or caught in area effect powers which gives the PCs an edge. The PCs can focus fire against a single foe (5 vs. 3) than the monsters can and change the action economy easier. The PC's synergies end up winning this fight.</p><p></p><p>The encounter was challenging in that it took a lot of resources to win, but it was not suppose to. It was not an n+3 encounter, it was not even n+1. And, it took about 20+ rounds to play out. How boring.</p><p></p><p>The reason is that the PCs are not hitting as often as they should be and the monsters have too many hit points. At this point, the PCs have a 15% less chance to hit than they did at level one. A 15% better chance to hit means that the combat ends 3 rounds earlier at a minimum and probably closer to 5 or 6 rounds earlier.</p><p></p><p></p><p>This encounter also did not use the PC's Epic Destiny Class Features. Just the PCs powers. The class features give the PCs the edge to win this relatively close on paper fight (but not as close in game).</p><p></p><p>The encounter is challenging in that it uses a lot of resources, but it is not challenging in that the players feel like their PCs are going to die. The PCs are not going to die here. They are just going to use a lot of resources.</p><p></p><p>But they are going to use a disproportionate amount of resources against a less than n+1 encounter than they should. If they do not use up quite a few of their Daily powers, the encounter will drag out further and their healing will not keep up.</p><p></p><p>And, this less than n+1 encounter easily takes 20 rounds to complete. That's a LONG time.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="KarinsDad, post: 4740830, member: 2011"] There is a difference between "not challenging" and easy. I think you are getting confused between the two. They sound similar, but are miles apart. High level encounters are not necessarily challenging. The monsters hit for too little damage, they have too many hit points, and players have too many ways to help each other out. So, the encounter is not challenging. It easily takes 20+ rounds to play as the players drudge through the mega hit points of the monsters. But, no real challenge. Not easy, just time consuming and resource consuming. It's obvious that very little (if any) Epic playtesting was done pre-release. As an example. Take an encounter with 3 25th level Death Titans versus 5 25th level PCs. This is between an n and n+1 encounter XP-wise. The creatures are the exact same level as the PCs. It should be a walk in the park for 5 25th level PCs. Not easy, but pretty much typical. The PCs have to eat through almost 2000 hit points of the monsters (including soul shards). The monsters have to eat through <700 hit points (1000+ with heals) of the PCs. The monsters hit the Legion plate and heavy shield specialized defender on a 12 (due to the aura). 45% of their normal attacks hit, so they average about 20+ points of damage per round against the defender, more against other PCs. Attacks versus AC are not a problem. At 60+ points of damage per round and healing surges, it takes the 3 monsters less than 20 rounds (maybe 18) to kill the PCs. Not including their Soul Devourer or Soul Burst powers. The defender hits back on a 14. The PCs each average maybe 35 to 40 points of damage with Encounter and Daily powers and have about 12 such powers (including items). But, these powers only hit about 50% of the time max (if that high, including synergies, the aura hampers melee PCs quite a bit). That's 1125 of the 2000 points they have to do and 12 rounds to do this damage. The PCs each average maybe 25 points of damage with At Will powers. Again with a 50% chance to hit, it takes 14 more rounds to do this damage or a combined total of 26 rounds. From this, it would seem like this is a lopsided fight strongly in favor of the monsters. But, although it takes the PCs more rounds to kill their foes straight up, their foes are often stunned or slowed or immobilized or dazed or caught in area effect powers which gives the PCs an edge. The PCs can focus fire against a single foe (5 vs. 3) than the monsters can and change the action economy easier. The PC's synergies end up winning this fight. The encounter was challenging in that it took a lot of resources to win, but it was not suppose to. It was not an n+3 encounter, it was not even n+1. And, it took about 20+ rounds to play out. How boring. The reason is that the PCs are not hitting as often as they should be and the monsters have too many hit points. At this point, the PCs have a 15% less chance to hit than they did at level one. A 15% better chance to hit means that the combat ends 3 rounds earlier at a minimum and probably closer to 5 or 6 rounds earlier. This encounter also did not use the PC's Epic Destiny Class Features. Just the PCs powers. The class features give the PCs the edge to win this relatively close on paper fight (but not as close in game). The encounter is challenging in that it uses a lot of resources, but it is not challenging in that the players feel like their PCs are going to die. The PCs are not going to die here. They are just going to use a lot of resources. But they are going to use a disproportionate amount of resources against a less than n+1 encounter than they should. If they do not use up quite a few of their Daily powers, the encounter will drag out further and their healing will not keep up. And, this less than n+1 encounter easily takes 20 rounds to complete. That's a LONG time. [/QUOTE]
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