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Sorcerer (Playtest 7)
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<blockquote data-quote="Chaosmancer" data-source="post: 9142503" data-attributes="member: 6801228"><p>I know we all understand that this is a very poor measurement, but I want to point it out explicitly. Because it really has a heavy bearing on your assumptions. </p><p></p><p>d10's are for single target. Picking a level at random, let's say a 5th level spell. That is supposed to do 8d10 damage, or an average of 44 damage. Now, let us look at an equivalent spell of 5th level, but this is an AOE. That spell does 8d6 damage, or 28... except, that is false. You'd never cast an AOE on only one target. You'd at least hit two targets. And with two targets, that 5th level spell is doing 56 damage, the equivalent of a SIXTH level spell. And what do you do about a spell like Bigby's Hand? It can deal 4d8 a turn, for a full minute. Even if we just assume half that time, that is a potential of 20d8 or 90 damage. Or something like Dominate Person, which can effectively "kill" an enemy with an arbitrarily high number of hp. </p><p></p><p>We don't really have a good way to measure spell power, I admit this, but it is certainly more complex than "all spells of the same level are the same strength and sorcery points to create those spells are the same cost as that strength" </p><p></p><p>After all, the new Twin Spell allows you to turn a spell like Banishment from a 4th level spell to a 5th level spell, for a single point. By your math, they have spent 1/2 of a 1st level spell slot in power, but I would argue turning a 4th level single target spell into a 5th level multi-target spell is worth more than a 1st level slot, let alone half of one. </p><p></p><p>And if that assumption is punctured, if a metamagic can actually be more valuable than the spell slot you could create with it... then your entire argument begins to collapse.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Interestingly, there is a hidden effect here. Why is Arcane Recovery worth 50% of the Wizard's power when it can only make a single 1st level slot, but only worth 11% when it can make two 5th level slots. After all, 5th level spells are orders of magnitude stronger than 1st level spells. </p><p></p><p>And the reason for that is because you have more spells. Making new spells has a bigger impact when you have fewer spells because the POWER of the class is in the number of spells they can cast. The more spells you can cast, and of the greater variety, the stronger it is.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>And your conclusion is VASTLY flawed. And for a much simpler reason than you might think. </p><p></p><p>Look at the sorcerer abilities, sans metamagic and sorcery points. </p><p></p><p><em>- Innate Sorcery: Increase the DC of your spells by 1</em></p><p></p><p>Now look at the Wizard's abilities, sans arcane recovery</p><p></p><p>- <em>Expanding the Spellbook (spend gold and time to learn new spells), Ritual Casting (Cast spells without spell slots and without preparing them, grows more powerful the more spells you have), Scholar (Expertise in a skill), Memorize Spell (always be able to have the perfect spell within 1 minute, grows more powerful the more spells you have), At-Will 1st and 2nd spells (increasing the value, since it is essentially an infinite pool of those spells to add points on the pile) </em></p><p></p><p></p><p>If you are correct that Metamagic isn't a "cost item" and Sorcerers are sitting at roughly 2% - 3% stronger than Wizard Arcane recovery... well, I don't think that list really accurately could be called a mere 3% increase in power. And remember when I talked earlier about the spells of the same level often being of very different power? Wizards are explicitly stated by the designers to have the best spell list in the game. Their options at each level are superior. They are starting at an advantage over the Sorcerer in pure spell power, by having the best spells bar none.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Your conclusion is blatantly false. We know, absolutely, that spells of the same level do not have the same power. You could declare this a problem of spell design, not of class design, but again, the designers EXPLICITLY stated they have given Wizard's the "best spell list". This is intentional in the class design. </p><p></p><p>And a wizard with every single spell known and the ability to swap into them with a minutes notice is vastly more powerful than a wizard who cannot. Because the correct spell at the correct time achieves more than a poor spell of the same level.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Flexibility is absolutely power.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I find it strange you have compared the sorcerer and wizard here at every step, yet fail to mention the Wizard's abilities. Infinite 1st and 2nd level castings. Even if they only use four castings of a 1st and four castings of a 2nd level spell, that is increasing the wizard budget by +14%, and their capstone being two free castings of a 3rd level would increase it by an additional 7%</p><p></p><p>I find your methodology flawed, but I find it striking that you point out a mere 6.5% increase in the sorcerer budget, and ignore at least a 21% increase in the wizard budget</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I mean, I'm glad you think more spells known is a mere ribbon, because that means you will support adding them to the class, because in your mind it won't actually change anything. But I think your entire argument is built upon faulty assumptions, and fundamentally misunderstands the actual way these abilities are utilized and measured.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Chaosmancer, post: 9142503, member: 6801228"] I know we all understand that this is a very poor measurement, but I want to point it out explicitly. Because it really has a heavy bearing on your assumptions. d10's are for single target. Picking a level at random, let's say a 5th level spell. That is supposed to do 8d10 damage, or an average of 44 damage. Now, let us look at an equivalent spell of 5th level, but this is an AOE. That spell does 8d6 damage, or 28... except, that is false. You'd never cast an AOE on only one target. You'd at least hit two targets. And with two targets, that 5th level spell is doing 56 damage, the equivalent of a SIXTH level spell. And what do you do about a spell like Bigby's Hand? It can deal 4d8 a turn, for a full minute. Even if we just assume half that time, that is a potential of 20d8 or 90 damage. Or something like Dominate Person, which can effectively "kill" an enemy with an arbitrarily high number of hp. We don't really have a good way to measure spell power, I admit this, but it is certainly more complex than "all spells of the same level are the same strength and sorcery points to create those spells are the same cost as that strength" After all, the new Twin Spell allows you to turn a spell like Banishment from a 4th level spell to a 5th level spell, for a single point. By your math, they have spent 1/2 of a 1st level spell slot in power, but I would argue turning a 4th level single target spell into a 5th level multi-target spell is worth more than a 1st level slot, let alone half of one. And if that assumption is punctured, if a metamagic can actually be more valuable than the spell slot you could create with it... then your entire argument begins to collapse. Interestingly, there is a hidden effect here. Why is Arcane Recovery worth 50% of the Wizard's power when it can only make a single 1st level slot, but only worth 11% when it can make two 5th level slots. After all, 5th level spells are orders of magnitude stronger than 1st level spells. And the reason for that is because you have more spells. Making new spells has a bigger impact when you have fewer spells because the POWER of the class is in the number of spells they can cast. The more spells you can cast, and of the greater variety, the stronger it is. And your conclusion is VASTLY flawed. And for a much simpler reason than you might think. Look at the sorcerer abilities, sans metamagic and sorcery points. [I]- Innate Sorcery: Increase the DC of your spells by 1[/I] Now look at the Wizard's abilities, sans arcane recovery - [I]Expanding the Spellbook (spend gold and time to learn new spells), Ritual Casting (Cast spells without spell slots and without preparing them, grows more powerful the more spells you have), Scholar (Expertise in a skill), Memorize Spell (always be able to have the perfect spell within 1 minute, grows more powerful the more spells you have), At-Will 1st and 2nd spells (increasing the value, since it is essentially an infinite pool of those spells to add points on the pile) [/I] If you are correct that Metamagic isn't a "cost item" and Sorcerers are sitting at roughly 2% - 3% stronger than Wizard Arcane recovery... well, I don't think that list really accurately could be called a mere 3% increase in power. And remember when I talked earlier about the spells of the same level often being of very different power? Wizards are explicitly stated by the designers to have the best spell list in the game. Their options at each level are superior. They are starting at an advantage over the Sorcerer in pure spell power, by having the best spells bar none. Your conclusion is blatantly false. We know, absolutely, that spells of the same level do not have the same power. You could declare this a problem of spell design, not of class design, but again, the designers EXPLICITLY stated they have given Wizard's the "best spell list". This is intentional in the class design. And a wizard with every single spell known and the ability to swap into them with a minutes notice is vastly more powerful than a wizard who cannot. Because the correct spell at the correct time achieves more than a poor spell of the same level. Flexibility is absolutely power. I find it strange you have compared the sorcerer and wizard here at every step, yet fail to mention the Wizard's abilities. Infinite 1st and 2nd level castings. Even if they only use four castings of a 1st and four castings of a 2nd level spell, that is increasing the wizard budget by +14%, and their capstone being two free castings of a 3rd level would increase it by an additional 7% I find your methodology flawed, but I find it striking that you point out a mere 6.5% increase in the sorcerer budget, and ignore at least a 21% increase in the wizard budget I mean, I'm glad you think more spells known is a mere ribbon, because that means you will support adding them to the class, because in your mind it won't actually change anything. But I think your entire argument is built upon faulty assumptions, and fundamentally misunderstands the actual way these abilities are utilized and measured. [/QUOTE]
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