Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
The
VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX
is coming! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Sorcerer (Playtest 7)
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="Kinematics" data-source="post: 9143200" data-attributes="member: 6932123"><p>I want to address this first, since it's central to your entire post:</p><p></p><p>But it's not <em>budgeted</em> power. It's not something you can assess with a metric, because flexibility involves every possible action you could perform (say, how many spells you could select) combined with every possible thing you might possibly need to do. </p><p></p><p>Flexibility is useful, but is there any meaningful way of measuring a given "amount" of flexibility against a level 1 spell slot? What even is an "amount" of flexibility? </p><p></p><p>I based my analysis on spells considered solely in the abstract, that are assumed to be balanced against their spell level (we know that that is not true, but that's an issue for spell balance, not class budgets), and with a completely unknown selection criteria (ie: player choice), and thus must be considered entirely fungible.</p><p></p><p>I will grant that one might trade power for flexibility, or vice versa, and thus the amount of flexibility is relevant to the overall class design. However without a means of defining what flexibility is, how to measure it, and how much it is worth, there is no value in focusing on it until you can at least provide a measure of the power side of the design.</p><p></p><p>Once you have a way of comparing power budgets, then you can go back and ask whether one class being less powerful than another (for example) is compensated by a certain degree of flexibility. You build and expand on the basics.</p><p></p><p></p><p>WotC have decided that a 5th level spell/spell slot should be able to do an average of 44 damage (or healing) to a single target, or 28 damage to each of multiple targets. They have not said that the spell slot is determined by the total damage done across all targets. And it's not the same, because 44 damage will push a target closer to dead than 28 damage will. 56 damage across two targets is not a 6th level spell.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Well, the difference between a 4th level spell slot and a 5th level spell slot is, at most, 2 SP. By Font of Magic, it would cost 6 SP to create a 4th level slot, and 7 SP to create a 5th level slot, meaning moving from 4th to 5th level is an extra 1 SP. If you use the DMG damage dice instead, it would move from 6 to 8, for a net cost of 2 SP.</p><p></p><p>Now, it would cost you more to get the SP you need by deconstructing the 4th level slot, but that inefficiency isn't what's being measured here.</p><p></p><p></p><p>I don't think my argument is falling apart yet, but let's try another example. Careful Spell on Fireball. Careful Spell costs 1 SP. It's negating 8d6 damage on up to 5 targets, so could conceivably be viewed as a healing effect exactly countering the damage of the Fireball. 8d6 AOE is 5th level. Thus it could be mathematically described as a 7 SP effect.</p><p></p><p>This is a bit contrived, of course. Spells aren't constructed or budgeted that way. How about Empowered Spell instead? </p><p></p><p>Suppose we had a non-overtuned Fireball that did the recommended 6d6 damage. Empowered Spell raises the average of each die from 3.5 to 4.25 if you reroll all values 1-3. That gives the overall spell a damage rating of about 7.2 d6s, or slightly better than a level 4 version of the spell.</p><p></p><p>So again, 1 SP was spent to raise the effective level of a spell by 1. And going from a 3rd level slot to a 4th level slot costs 1 more SP (6 vs 5), so we're still fine in that regard.</p><p></p><p></p><p>This is correct. I didn't write that out because I didn't want to belabor the point when that wasn't really a major focus.</p><p></p><p></p><p>This I will agree with, mostly. You did leave out a few things for the new sorcerer abilities in the UA, while comparing against the full list of wizard abilities. Of the wizard abilities:</p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Spellbook: Not a budget item</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Ritual Casting: Is a budget item because it bypasses an established resource, but ritual spells are heavily curated, so I don't think the actual power is that large. Has more value for flexibility.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Scholar: Budget item, but low value. Vaguely equivalent to Guidance, but for a single skill.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Memorize Spell: Not a budget item, but I feel is unbalanced on the flexibility side due to how frequently it can be used.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Spell Mastery: Budget item, though it did get nerfed. Difficult to judge value.</li> </ul><p>Meanwhile, while I did give a ~3% boost from Sorcerous Recovery, I didn't give a percent increase from Innate Sorcery because it varies by level, being a relatively high boost at low levels (maybe doubling power at 1st level?), down to just a few percent at 20th level. I didn't want to try to figure out what percent it counted as, so just left it as 'somewhat of a boost'.</p><p></p><p>Wizard still has more power, in my opinion, but it's almost entirely wrapped up in Spell Mastery. (And of course Memorize Spell on the flexibility side.) Otherwise I don't feel they are out of line with each other on the budget scale.</p><p></p><p></p><p>I don't think I have? I pulled in Arcane Recovery for the chart because its function is very similar to the spell slot-granting aspect of sorcery points, and wanted to have a comparison. I also focused on it more at the PHB level. I didn't start getting into playtest features until the UA7 section, and by that point the wizard was not being considered at all.</p><p></p><p>I mean, this is the sorcerer thread. That's what I'm focused on. The wizard comparison was merely tangential.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Kinematics, post: 9143200, member: 6932123"] I want to address this first, since it's central to your entire post: But it's not [i]budgeted[/i] power. It's not something you can assess with a metric, because flexibility involves every possible action you could perform (say, how many spells you could select) combined with every possible thing you might possibly need to do. Flexibility is useful, but is there any meaningful way of measuring a given "amount" of flexibility against a level 1 spell slot? What even is an "amount" of flexibility? I based my analysis on spells considered solely in the abstract, that are assumed to be balanced against their spell level (we know that that is not true, but that's an issue for spell balance, not class budgets), and with a completely unknown selection criteria (ie: player choice), and thus must be considered entirely fungible. I will grant that one might trade power for flexibility, or vice versa, and thus the amount of flexibility is relevant to the overall class design. However without a means of defining what flexibility is, how to measure it, and how much it is worth, there is no value in focusing on it until you can at least provide a measure of the power side of the design. Once you have a way of comparing power budgets, then you can go back and ask whether one class being less powerful than another (for example) is compensated by a certain degree of flexibility. You build and expand on the basics. WotC have decided that a 5th level spell/spell slot should be able to do an average of 44 damage (or healing) to a single target, or 28 damage to each of multiple targets. They have not said that the spell slot is determined by the total damage done across all targets. And it's not the same, because 44 damage will push a target closer to dead than 28 damage will. 56 damage across two targets is not a 6th level spell. Well, the difference between a 4th level spell slot and a 5th level spell slot is, at most, 2 SP. By Font of Magic, it would cost 6 SP to create a 4th level slot, and 7 SP to create a 5th level slot, meaning moving from 4th to 5th level is an extra 1 SP. If you use the DMG damage dice instead, it would move from 6 to 8, for a net cost of 2 SP. Now, it would cost you more to get the SP you need by deconstructing the 4th level slot, but that inefficiency isn't what's being measured here. I don't think my argument is falling apart yet, but let's try another example. Careful Spell on Fireball. Careful Spell costs 1 SP. It's negating 8d6 damage on up to 5 targets, so could conceivably be viewed as a healing effect exactly countering the damage of the Fireball. 8d6 AOE is 5th level. Thus it could be mathematically described as a 7 SP effect. This is a bit contrived, of course. Spells aren't constructed or budgeted that way. How about Empowered Spell instead? Suppose we had a non-overtuned Fireball that did the recommended 6d6 damage. Empowered Spell raises the average of each die from 3.5 to 4.25 if you reroll all values 1-3. That gives the overall spell a damage rating of about 7.2 d6s, or slightly better than a level 4 version of the spell. So again, 1 SP was spent to raise the effective level of a spell by 1. And going from a 3rd level slot to a 4th level slot costs 1 more SP (6 vs 5), so we're still fine in that regard. This is correct. I didn't write that out because I didn't want to belabor the point when that wasn't really a major focus. This I will agree with, mostly. You did leave out a few things for the new sorcerer abilities in the UA, while comparing against the full list of wizard abilities. Of the wizard abilities: [LIST] [*]Spellbook: Not a budget item [*]Ritual Casting: Is a budget item because it bypasses an established resource, but ritual spells are heavily curated, so I don't think the actual power is that large. Has more value for flexibility. [*]Scholar: Budget item, but low value. Vaguely equivalent to Guidance, but for a single skill. [*]Memorize Spell: Not a budget item, but I feel is unbalanced on the flexibility side due to how frequently it can be used. [*]Spell Mastery: Budget item, though it did get nerfed. Difficult to judge value. [/LIST] Meanwhile, while I did give a ~3% boost from Sorcerous Recovery, I didn't give a percent increase from Innate Sorcery because it varies by level, being a relatively high boost at low levels (maybe doubling power at 1st level?), down to just a few percent at 20th level. I didn't want to try to figure out what percent it counted as, so just left it as 'somewhat of a boost'. Wizard still has more power, in my opinion, but it's almost entirely wrapped up in Spell Mastery. (And of course Memorize Spell on the flexibility side.) Otherwise I don't feel they are out of line with each other on the budget scale. I don't think I have? I pulled in Arcane Recovery for the chart because its function is very similar to the spell slot-granting aspect of sorcery points, and wanted to have a comparison. I also focused on it more at the PHB level. I didn't start getting into playtest features until the UA7 section, and by that point the wizard was not being considered at all. I mean, this is the sorcerer thread. That's what I'm focused on. The wizard comparison was merely tangential. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Sorcerer (Playtest 7)
Top